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#11
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suggestions for my technique on video
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#12
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suggestions for my technique on video
Ken Roberts wrote: I worked on doing that for lots of time in my V1 skate up many hills yesterday -- i.e. looking in the direction of my overall direction of forward motion, instead of my current leg-push or pole-push. I found it a bit tricky to move my head differently from my torso + shoulders. As I kept working on it I got much better at it on moderate hills, though I tended to lose it on steep hills. My neck felt a little tired sometimes. I can't really picture what you're saying, but, the way I was taught, you don't move your head around. YOu don't arch or crane your neck You simply keep your neck and torso inthe relaxed "c" shape and look up the hill, not at your skis or poles. You look uphill from the top half of your eyes, I see my eyebrows when I do it. My nose is pointing forward, but somewhat down because of the relaxed C shape in the torso and neck. If I looked the same direction as my nose, I'd be looking just forward of my skis, or at the tips. But the eyes are looking up, rotated upward in the sockets. What I'm striving for (my mental image): I'm not bobbing my head, Upper body motion is in the arms and the abs, not the neck. This really (I mean really) helps get those hips forward and the ski gliding up the hill. Looking down tends to get the butt back in the toilet seat position. So maybe cross-country skiing is different from bicycling and downhill skiing, and sometimes it's better to look where you're poling instead of looking where you're going? I guess there's always a first. But that would be against what I've been taught by every professional instructor I've had including former US Olympians, national-level coaches and recently JD Dowling who is a pretty decent and well respected coach. They all really emphasised the looking up hill from a relaxed torso and neck. When I find my self getting tired or such, if I concentrate on that, it brings my upward torso motion up and forward, bringing my hips forward, moving the gliding ski up the hill noticably more each push. |
#13
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suggestions for my technique on video
Camilo wrote
... that would be against what I've been taught by every professional instructor I've had including former US Olympians, national-level coaches . . . They all really emphasised the looking up hill from a relaxed torso and neck. The physics and biomechanics of all the different moves of V1 skate is very complicated, so it's not surprising that successful coaches look for simplified advice about it. Acknowledging the full complexity would overwhelm the skiers (and most of the coaches). There's lots of concepts that coaches teach which are appealingly simple, and they work as helpful learning drills, and the coaches look good demonstrating the concept in front of you, and the concept looks good in a special demo video clip. But when they're trying to really go fast in an actual race -- and they're not thinking about students or "politically correct" coaches watching -- maybe they skate V1 up a hill different from what they teach in class. Because turning the head somewhat toward the side and aiming the pole push to the side is what delivers the most total power in V1 skate, and their unconscious neuromuscular control center "knows" that, even if their conscious mind does not. So how about providing a link to a video clip of one of those national coaches skating V1 up a hill in a real race -- and let's see if they actually keep looking straight up the hill the whole time -- when the price of political correctness is getting dropped by the pack. Ken |
#14
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video clips of Stefania Belmondo head motions
For a look at head motion in ski skating at the Olympic level, how
about try going to this page: http://www.olympic.org/uk/athletes/p...PAR_I_ID=76436 and on the right side click on both of those two videos. The upper video has several segments of Stefania Belmondo doing V1 skate up a hill. So ... Does she or doesn't she? Is her head facing forward the whole time, or is it turning to the side on every pole push? The lower video is the 15km Free at Soldier Hollow in 2002. Starting at :30 seconds is a segment of Belmondo doing V1 skate straight in the camera. So ... Does she or doesn't she? Then you can see the finish of the race. There used to be a couple of video clips on the web of Carl Swenson doing V1 skate, and he clearly turned his head toward his poling side on each pole-push in V1 -- despite whatever some USA "professional instructors" and "national-level coaches" might be teaching as the "correct" theory of head motion in courses. Ken |
#15
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suggestions for my technique on video
On 20 Jan 2007 17:15:23 -0800, "Ken Roberts"
wrote: Camilo wrote ... that would be against what I've been taught by every professional instructor I've had including former US Olympians, national-level coaches . . . They all really emphasised the looking up hill from a relaxed torso and neck. The physics and biomechanics of all the different moves of V1 skate is very complicated, so it's not surprising that successful coaches look for simplified advice about it. Acknowledging the full complexity would overwhelm the skiers (and most of the coaches). There's lots of concepts that coaches teach which are appealingly simple, and they work as helpful learning drills, and the coaches look good demonstrating the concept in front of you, and the concept looks good in a special demo video clip. But when they're trying to really go fast in an actual race -- and they're not thinking about students or "politically correct" coaches watching -- maybe they skate V1 up a hill different from what they teach in class. Because turning the head somewhat toward the side and aiming the pole push to the side is what delivers the most total power in V1 skate, and their unconscious neuromuscular control center "knows" that, even if their conscious mind does not. So how about providing a link to a video clip of one of those national coaches skating V1 up a hill in a real race -- and let's see if they actually keep looking straight up the hill the whole time -- when the price of political correctness is getting dropped by the pack. No one's head is perfectly still. But your head is moving a huge amount in many of those pictures. Most importantly, I've never seen a high level skier moving their head as much as you do. I don't understand the physics, but the practice is that at a high level of the sport it's not done. If you have some true rationale of why it's better to move your head, then maybe it is. But in the absense of that, just saying the other people can't explain why it shouldn't be done is insufficient -- what is done by the best people is likely to be better. -- JT **************************** Remove "remove" to reply Visit http://www.jt10000.com **************************** |
#16
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video clips of Stefania Belmondo head motions
On 20 Jan 2007 18:10:55 -0800, "Ken Roberts"
wrote: http://www.olympic.org/uk/athletes/p...PAR_I_ID=76436 I'm having trouble getting those videos to play, but watched her in those Olympics and recently watched her skating in the Lahti World Championships, and your head is moving MUCH more than hers. -- JT **************************** Remove "remove" to reply Visit http://www.jt10000.com **************************** |
#17
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video clips of Stefania Belmondo head motions
Try it with IE7 (Opera didn't work). Her torso is turning ski to ski
as a result of poling, push off and consequent shifting weight. The head is go along for the ride with the torso, as it should. Note also (other discussion) that she's not looking at the top of the hill, though probably spotting it or well up the trail as her eyes come across to the off side ski. It's a common mistake in learning to confuse cause (weight shift from poling and ski to ski movement) with effect (torso and head face move ski to ski), such that the skier actively turns the torso or head because they think this part of the way to create ski to ski movement. rm John Forrest Tomlinson wrote: On 20 Jan 2007 18:10:55 -0800, "Ken Roberts" wrote: http://www.olympic.org/uk/athletes/p...PAR_I_ID=76436 I'm having trouble getting those videos to play, but watched her in those Olympics and recently watched her skating in the Lahti World Championships, and your head is moving MUCH more than hers. |
#18
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suggestions for my technique on video
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
I've never seen a high level skier moving their head as much as you do. I don't understand the physics, but the practice is that at a high level of the sport it's not done. Thanks for the observation -- I'll try to move my head less (and differently). I'm not in any way suggesting that _my_ head motion is any sort of model of optimal physics or sound racing style. I am saying that lots of elite racers have _some_ head motion -- of a fairly consistent style which I described -- a motion which is both less than mine and different than mine. But it's not just looking straight ahead up the hill. Ken |
#19
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suggestions for my technique on video
Ken Roberts wrote: Camilo wrote ... that would be against what I've been taught by every professional instructor I've had including former US Olympians, national-level coaches . . . They all really emphasised the looking up hill from a relaxed torso and neck. The physics and biomechanics of all the different moves of V1 skate is very complicated, so it's not surprising that successful coaches look for simplified advice about it. Acknowledging the full complexity would overwhelm the skiers (and most of the coaches). There's lots of concepts that coaches teach which are appealingly simple, and they work as helpful learning drills, and the coaches look good demonstrating the concept in front of you, and the concept looks good in a special demo video clip. But when they're trying to really go fast in an actual race -- and they're not thinking about students or "politically correct" coaches watching -- maybe they skate V1 up a hill different from what they teach in class. Because turning the head somewhat toward the side and aiming the pole push to the side is what delivers the most total power in V1 skate, and their unconscious neuromuscular control center "knows" that, even if their conscious mind does not. So how about providing a link to a video clip of one of those national coaches skating V1 up a hill in a real race -- and let's see if they actually keep looking straight up the hill the whole time -- when the price of political correctness is getting dropped by the pack. Ken OK, whatever you say. I'll listen to a guy on the internet who does not demonstrate excellent technique rather than the very esteemed coaches I've been fortunate enough to be taught by, and the teaching was with personal observation, direct demonstration, breaking my movements into small pieces to work on. I guess analysis by a physicist over a usenet discussion group is much better. Sorry. |
#20
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video of Kikkan Randall head motions
Camilo wrote
... former US Olympians, national-level coaches . . . They all really emphasised the looking up hill from a relaxed torso and neck. Kikkan Randall in the 2007 World Cup Rybinsk Sprint Final: http://www.kikkan.com/russiasprnt_video.html Lots of uphill V1 skate in the segment from time 1:40 - 2:05. so which is it: Neck relaxed and looking up the hill the whole time? or Ducking her head quickly off to her poling-side on each V1 pole-push? . (and what about the other skiers doing V1 in that segment?) Whatever various USA coaches may teach and snow in nice courses and demos, seems like when the fastest USA skiers like Kikkan Randall and Carl Swenson get to the World Cup level, they put aside the simplistic teachings and instead do what it takes to really compete. Ken |
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