A snowboarding "crutch" at last!

A few years ago, I had an "interesting" introduction to the sport of
snowboarding as a 40+ adult. You can enjoy a rerun of the details in
the immortal thread, "Our snowboarding misadventure at Seven Springs":
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.s...948c64fb296a1a

One of my observations was the following: "Since the sport has no
'crutch' -- the hand on the wall for the novice skater, training wheels
or a parent's grip for a new bicyclist, poles for the beginning skier
-- there doesn't seem to be a way to master the balancing gradually."

Well, it appears that snowboarding pros also have been contemplating
this problem. Here's an excerpt from the 11/12/06 Pittsburgh
Post-Gazette, discussing a program at Smugglers' Notch in Vermont:
"The resort also offers a four-day snowboarding program that includes
unique tools such as outriggers and balance poles to ensure a high
level of success. Spokeswoman Barbara Thomke said the program is
designed for 'the never-ever snowboarders of the Gen-X and Boomer
generations and taught by same-age masters of Snow Sport University.'
Go for it." http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06316/737088-287.stm

"Never-ever" -- that was me a few years ago! Wish this type of program
had been available to me when I started, but it's good to know that an
obvious gap in the snowboarding teaching regimen is being filled.

Joe Ramirez

I just read your original report. You continued riding? Enjoy it now?

When my daughter & I started, they set her up in the wrong direction,
and tried to do that to me as well. Dunno how they (mis)chose for her,
but for me, the guy gave me a push from behind, I stopped right foot
forward, so he set my board up *left* foot forward. I was pretty sure
he was wrong for 2 reasons:
1. I'm right foot forward on a bike. I explained to him, but couldn't
get him to understand what it meant.
2. I had read about that test, and from what I read it's just what
you'd think: The foot you put forward is your forward foot. Worked that
way for me anyway.

Even so I tried it out for a few minutes, before I came back & had him
fix it.

With my daughter we didn't figure it out until much later.

My lesson was not bad. My daughter's on the other hand...

She might have been 12 at the time and she was in a kids lesson. There
was a smaller kid in the group who had had lessons before, but didn't
seem to get it, and the instructors seemed to spend all their energy
keeping him in control of his board and the other kids didn't get much
instruction. Anyway she had a full-day lesson, and only learned to
"falling leaf" and didn't learn to turn. It was babysitting, not
teaching, and if I had realized then how bad it was I would have asked
for my money back.

David wrote:
I just read your original report. You continued riding? Enjoy it now?

Yes. The key was buying our own equipment so we wouldn't have to worry
about unpredictable rental gear, and then getting a free private lesson
(after complaining about the first lesson) in which we were finally
shown how to use the edges so we could sideslip and progress from
there.

When my daughter & I started, they set her up in the wrong direction,
and tried to do that to me as well. Dunno how they (mis)chose for her,
but for me, the guy gave me a push from behind, I stopped right foot
forward, so he set my board up *left* foot forward. I was pretty sure
he was wrong for 2 reasons:
1. I'm right foot forward on a bike. I explained to him, but couldn't
get him to understand what it meant.
2. I had read about that test, and from what I read it's just what
you'd think: The foot you put forward is your forward foot. Worked that
way for me anyway.

Even so I tried it out for a few minutes, before I came back & had him
fix it.

With my daughter we didn't figure it out until much later.

My lesson was not bad. My daughter's on the other hand...

She might have been 12 at the time and she was in a kids lesson. There
was a smaller kid in the group who had had lessons before, but didn't
seem to get it, and the instructors seemed to spend all their energy
keeping him in control of his board and the other kids didn't get much
instruction. Anyway she had a full-day lesson, and only learned to
"falling leaf" and didn't learn to turn. It was babysitting, not
teaching, and if I had realized then how bad it was I would have asked
for my money back.

IMO group lessons are of little value. I would never recommend them to
anyone. Take a private or quasi-private lesson -- no more than two
students total, and they should be family or friends.

Joe Ramirez

Joe,

Just read your account of visit to Seven Springs (that's what caught my
eye). Next time you're in the area stop in visit our shop - Rt 31
Bike, Board & Ski, on Rt 31 east of Bakersville. About 15 minutes to
the Springs. If you already have and, I didn't recognize your name;
apology. My grandma told me when I was 14 I had a mind like a sieve
and, it hasn't got much better in the past 35 years!

David wrote:
1. I'm right foot forward on a bike. I explained to him, but couldn't
get him to understand what it meant.

I'm puzzling this one myself. Is this a reference to which foot you put
down at a stop?

She might have been 12 at the time and she was in a kids lesson. There
was a smaller kid in the group who had had lessons before, but didn't
seem to get it, and the instructors seemed to spend all their energy
keeping him in control of his board and the other kids didn't get much
instruction. Anyway she had a full-day lesson, and only learned to
"falling leaf" and didn't learn to turn. It was babysitting, not
teaching, and if I had realized then how bad it was I would have asked
for my money back.

Having taken many a group lesson as a child, I did not find them all to be
babysitting. Some try to cater to wide of a spread, or too many students,
leading to a wasted session. Others do manage to be useful.

Jeremy wrote:
David wrote:
1. I'm right foot forward on a bike. I explained to him, but couldn't
get him to understand what it meant.

I'm puzzling this one myself. Is this a reference to which foot you put
down at a stop?

Never mind. I see a reference to coasting at sheldonbrown.com.

"David" wrote in message
oups.com...
I just read your original report. You continued riding? Enjoy it now?

When my daughter & I started, they set her up in the wrong direction,
and tried to do that to me as well. Dunno how they (mis)chose for her,
but for me, the guy gave me a push from behind, I stopped right foot
forward, so he set my board up *left* foot forward. I was pretty sure
he was wrong for 2 reasons:
1. I'm right foot forward on a bike. I explained to him, but couldn't
get him to understand what it meant.
2. I had read about that test, and from what I read it's just what
you'd think: The foot you put forward is your forward foot. Worked that
way for me anyway.

Even so I tried it out for a few minutes, before I came back & had him
fix it.

With my daughter we didn't figure it out until much later.

My lesson was not bad. My daughter's on the other hand...

She might have been 12 at the time and she was in a kids lesson. There
was a smaller kid in the group who had had lessons before, but didn't
seem to get it, and the instructors seemed to spend all their energy
keeping him in control of his board and the other kids didn't get much
instruction. Anyway she had a full-day lesson, and only learned to
"falling leaf" and didn't learn to turn. It was babysitting, not
teaching, and if I had realized then how bad it was I would have asked
for my money back.

The 'bad student' thing can definately slow down a class.
When it's apparent, that's the time to move students to
different classes. The advantage of multiple week classes
is that appropriate moves can be made to keep everyone
learning.

I do my best to never let my students learn a falling leaf or
sideslip. Those that do use it as a crutch to get down slopes
they don't belong on. It's much better to learn both turns
from the beginning, and practice them until you are ready
to move to steeper hills.

Bob

Bob F wrote:
"David" wrote in message
oups.com...
I just read your original report. You continued riding? Enjoy it now?

When my daughter & I started, they set her up in the wrong direction,
and tried to do that to me as well. Dunno how they (mis)chose for her,
but for me, the guy gave me a push from behind, I stopped right foot
forward, so he set my board up *left* foot forward. I was pretty sure
he was wrong for 2 reasons:
1. I'm right foot forward on a bike. I explained to him, but couldn't
get him to understand what it meant.
2. I had read about that test, and from what I read it's just what
you'd think: The foot you put forward is your forward foot. Worked that
way for me anyway.

Even so I tried it out for a few minutes, before I came back & had him
fix it.

With my daughter we didn't figure it out until much later.

My lesson was not bad. My daughter's on the other hand...

She might have been 12 at the time and she was in a kids lesson. There
was a smaller kid in the group who had had lessons before, but didn't
seem to get it, and the instructors seemed to spend all their energy
keeping him in control of his board and the other kids didn't get much
instruction. Anyway she had a full-day lesson, and only learned to
"falling leaf" and didn't learn to turn. It was babysitting, not
teaching, and if I had realized then how bad it was I would have asked
for my money back.

The 'bad student' thing can definately slow down a class.
When it's apparent, that's the time to move students to
different classes. The advantage of multiple week classes
is that appropriate moves can be made to keep everyone
learning.

This reinforces my view that group lessons should be avoided.

I do my best to never let my students learn a falling leaf or
sideslip. Those that do use it as a crutch to get down slopes
they don't belong on. It's much better to learn both turns
from the beginning, and practice them until you are ready
to move to steeper hills.

Interesting -- the "run without walking" approach. My personal
experience was that this kind of methodology was useless for me. Can't
learn to turn without balance and edge control, and can't learn balance
and edge control without sideslipping. Of course, that doesn't mean
that one should head out to the black diamonds with sideslipping as
one's sole technique. But trying to bypass it pedagogically was a
fiasco for me and my son. Glad that stage is well in the past.

Joe Ramirez

wrote:
Bob F wrote:
I do my best to never let my students learn a falling leaf or
sideslip. Those that do use it as a crutch to get down slopes
they don't belong on. It's much better to learn both turns
from the beginning, and practice them until you are ready
to move to steeper hills.

Interesting -- the "run without walking" approach. My personal
experience was that this kind of methodology was useless for me. Can't
learn to turn without balance and edge control, and can't learn balance
and edge control without sideslipping. Of course, that doesn't mean
that one should head out to the black diamonds with sideslipping as
one's sole technique. But trying to bypass it pedagogically was a
fiasco for me and my son. Glad that stage is well in the past.

I can definitely see the theory behind this new trend not to teach
falling leaf. I definitely try to wean the people away from it as soon
as they develop a basic sense of edge control as I agree that it
becomes a huge crutch. However, if the person can't even balance on
their edge yet, there is no point to trying to complicate things for
them further - I usually mention the point that falling leaf is only a
"drill" and not a complete riding technique. Usually if you make them
"falling leaf" via their weak side (toeside) so that they don't favor
one side too much... they can more easily transition to linked turns.

"lonerider" wrote in message
oups.com...

wrote:
Bob F wrote:
I do my best to never let my students learn a falling leaf or
sideslip. Those that do use it as a crutch to get down slopes
they don't belong on. It's much better to learn both turns
from the beginning, and practice them until you are ready
to move to steeper hills.

Interesting -- the "run without walking" approach. My personal
experience was that this kind of methodology was useless for me. Can't
learn to turn without balance and edge control, and can't learn balance
and edge control without sideslipping. Of course, that doesn't mean
that one should head out to the black diamonds with sideslipping as
one's sole technique. But trying to bypass it pedagogically was a
fiasco for me and my son. Glad that stage is well in the past.

I can definitely see the theory behind this new trend not to teach
falling leaf. I definitely try to wean the people away from it as soon
as they develop a basic sense of edge control as I agree that it
becomes a huge crutch. However, if the person can't even balance on
their edge yet, there is no point to trying to complicate things for
them further - I usually mention the point that falling leaf is only a
"drill" and not a complete riding technique. Usually if you make them
"falling leaf" via their weak side (toeside) so that they don't favor
one side too much... they can more easily transition to linked turns.


A much better thing to learn than the falling leaf is simple turns
towards and away from the fall line while traversing. Turn down the
hill, then back up to slow down. Little turns at first, then increasingly
towards the fall line as you get the feel of it. Finally, when you can
turn into the fall line, just hold the turn longer and you are soon
traversing the other way. Before that time, any way to turn around
at the end of a traverse is OK.

My experience is that many students will use the falling leaf as
a crutch which prevents them from turning both ways when it gets
to the liimt of their comfort zone. As soon as they side slip or use the
falling leaf, they quit learning what they should be learning - how to
carry what they know into steeper slopes. It is sometimes really
hard to get them to try if they have the easy-out.

Bob