help! I'm abusing my quads!

After (half) a day of skiing, my quads are always burning and they're weak
enough that I worry about being able to make turns well. Friends tell me that
my thighs really shouldn't be working *that* hard. I'm told to learn to do
things like "let the boot support your weight," but even standing still on
skis, I can't seem to get into a position where my thighs aren't working to
keep myself upright.

I suspect that I'm fighting my skis, using too much force and not enough
finesse. Any specific suggestions/drills to learn how to make it easier on my
legs? It sucks when everyone else is still raring to go and you're not.
Especially the morning of the second day. Waste of a lift ticket.

--
monique
Longmont, CO

Monique,
How long have you been skiing? What kind of terrain do you mostly ski?
At what altitude do you ski as opposed to where you live? What is the
current model and length of skis you are using? How many days of
skiing do you do per year? Do you workout in any way besides skiing?
What is your height, weight, age? Do you take any meds, smoke, or have
any other chronic physical conditions? It is difficult to give you any
advice without such info.

On 2005-01-09, thinnmann penned:
Monique, How long have you been skiing? What kind of terrain do you mostly
ski? At what altitude do you ski as opposed to where you live? What is the
current model and length of skis you are using? How many days of skiing do
you do per year? Do you workout in any way besides skiing? What is your
height, weight, age? Do you take any meds, smoke, or have any other chronic
physical conditions? It is difficult to give you any advice without such
info.

Okee doke. I've mentioned all of this in my various posts to the group, but
I'll reiterate as it's handy to have all the info in one place.

I'm 27 and have been skiing on and off since I was 16. I live in
Colorado and ski mostly A-Basin, some Vail, Beaver Creek, etc, so I live
at around 5k feet and ski from 10-13k feet of altitude. Before I moved
here, I lived in VA and skied wherever I could. I still have trouble
with powder, but can handle pretty much anything else and have skied
double black moguls. Typical days would be packed powder or maybe some
fluff, some groomers, lots of moguls, maybe some widely spaced trees.
Pretty much anything that looks interesting.

My skis are "intermediate" Elans, 160cm. I got them before last season and
have probably skied 25 days on them. I hadn't skied for 2-3 years and wanted
a cheap pair to get me back to my previous level. I've far exceeded that
since then. I am demo'ing skis in anticipation of buying skis more
appropriate to the terrain I'm skiing. No one at any ski shop has ever seen
them before, it seems. Just random crap skis, soft, around 65mm waist.

I probably skied about 20 days last year, 4 (badly) the year before that, none
the several years before. I play ice hockey once a week, practice striking
martial arts, and mountain bike during the warmer months. I'm supposed to be
doing PT to strengthen my inner thighs due to some kneecap tracking issues,
but I haven't done that in a while. I remember getting sore back when I used
to ski, in high school and college, but not nearly as sore as I get now, nor
as quickly. Of course, I was in much better shape then (weren't we all). I
was getting massively sore throughout last winter, as well.

5'5, probably 170 lb. No meds except BC, no smoke, have arthritic
knees, had a wrist problem most of last year, was sick a bunch between
mountain biking and ski season, so I lost a lot of my muscle.

Honestly, I believe that all of the above is probably of less importance than
my skiing technique. I tend to "haul" on the skis to force them to turn; I
think I'm fighting the mountain. When instructors, friends, etc, try to get
me to feel the point where my boots are providing all of my support, I never
seem to find it, whether on my old boots (salomon evolution) or my new
(salomon women's xwave 8). It *always* seems like my quads are involved.

--
monique
Longmont, CO

On 2005-01-10, Monique Y. Mudama penned:

I'm supposed to be doing PT to strengthen my inner thighs due to some
kneecap tracking issues, but I haven't done that in a while.

Forgot to mention that the entire width of my quad gets sore during skiing,
not just the inside.

--
monique
Longmont, CO

On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 18:50:31 -0600, Monique Y. Mudama wrote:

On 2005-01-10, Monique Y. Mudama penned:

I'm supposed to be doing PT to strengthen my inner thighs

supposed??

Thirty pounds of excess weight would make anyones thighs burn. Mine used
to. I am in the best shape in my life and just skied seven days straight
for 6 hours a day and not one bit of thigh burn. I either bike, work out
with weights or walk every day but Sunday. I eat pretty much anything
that I want .. 5'10" .. 160 lbs. Been doing this for several
years. Most every overweight person I know has a list of excuses..
usually starting with medication.

Forgot to mention that the entire width of my quad gets sore during
skiing, not just the inside.

Not surprising..try carrying 4 gallons of milk around with you everywhere
you go. Change your lifestyle..don't diet.

overandout

Monique,
This is a moderated group and I am really not trying to sound rude, but
if you really live that high and you really ski that much and you
really mountain bike off season and play ice hockey, the quad suffering
really isn't adding up, except for the 5'5" 170 lb part. If you do a
BMI on that it is pretty poor. Try it here
http://nhlbisupport.com/bmi/bmicalc.htm
and you get a 28.3 which is on the high side of overweight. What I
believe is happening isyYour quads are doing an inordinate amount of
eccentric contractions to support your weight on your small frame
during a day of skiing, even if said weight is solid muscle.
In my humble and honest opinion, you have two choices: lose some pounds
through diet and more aerobic conditioning or add lots of weight quad
presses emphasizing the eccentric part to develop your quads. If you
lose the pounds, your quads will respond with better performance. If
you lift weights, your quads will also respond.
Choice 1 - You need to begin to closely mointor your caloric intake. I
suggest using a tool like the software available at
http://calorieking.com
Forget about fad dieting, because you need lots of carbs to support a
hard day of skiing. Reading a book like Chris Charmichael's Food For
Fitness would add to your success.
Combine this with a walking and running program. You should see an
improvement in a month or so if you stick to this type of program.
Choice 2- Get yourself a squat machine or go to the gym. Do sets of
low high reps, low weights, and don't go past a 90 degree angle at your
knees. Do the eccentric part (when you let the weight down) slower
than the concentric part (when you push the weight out). Make it a 3
to 1 ratio.
Choice 3, which I just thought of, is do both Choice 1 and Choice 2 for
a few weeks.

Unfortunately, you should have been doing this, minimally, June -
September... You will be playing catch-up now that the season is in
full swing.

I have seen lots of athletes blame their equipment and spend lots of
money on new stuff when they would get better results through simply
improving their conditioning and losing some pounds. Fortunately,
these things usually go hand-in-hand.

Certainly, continue to demo stuff and make sure you are committing to
proper pressuring a pair of nicely shaped edges so that they do most of
the work for you. The fitness component will make you even more of a
star.

Good luck!

On 2005-01-10, thinnmann penned:
Monique,
This is a moderated group and I am really not trying to sound rude, but
if you really live that high and you really ski that much and you
really mountain bike off season and play ice hockey, the quad suffering
really isn't adding up, except for the 5'5" 170 lb part. If you do a
BMI on that it is pretty poor.

Ironic name you have there =P

Believe me, the weight issue isn't a surprise to me, and all of your
links and advice are old hat. I lost a lot of fat before the wedding
last March; then the wedding dinners and honeymoon brought it right
back. I was in awesome shape through most of the summer, but multiple
illnesses, a wrist injury, and a trip to visit family out of the country
all conspired to undo my hard work. I'm also on medication that
probably adds 5-10 pounds of combined water and fat, but I'm switching
to another variant that will hopefully eliminate that. I also have old
knee injuries and arthritis that imo completely eliminate running from
the "smart moves" category, aside from the fact that I absolutely hate
that form of exercise unless I'm chasing after a ball or perhaps running
for my life. The Covert Bailey philosophy (lots of exercise and reduced
fat consumption) has been a great help to me, when I've been able to
follow it. As long as I'm listing my excuses, I also have a tendency to go
witless and grumpy when I haven't eaten recently, resulting in me blindly
grabbing the fattiest, most sugar-laden meal I can find and wolfing it down
before sanity returns. It's no good. I've just purchased glucose tablets so
that I'll hopefully reach for those instead of chocolate chip cookies when I
feel taht way.

I was down to around 150 this summer, and I believe a good weight for me would
be 140. Of course I know that weight is irrelevant, and BMI is misleading;
it's actual body fat percentage that matters.

[snip]

Unfortunately, you should have been doing this, minimally, June -
September... You will be playing catch-up now that the season is in
full swing.

Preaching to the choir. As I said, I worked my butt off this summer,
partially in the hopes of getting the "jump" (ha, ha) on the ski season, but
last year just wasn't my year in a number of ways.

I have seen lots of athletes blame their equipment and spend lots of
money on new stuff when they would get better results through simply
improving their conditioning and losing some pounds. Fortunately,
these things usually go hand-in-hand.

Certainly, continue to demo stuff and make sure you are committing to
proper pressuring a pair of nicely shaped edges so that they do most of
the work for you. The fitness component will make you even more of a
star.

I don't think that new skis will solve my problems. I do suspect that a
different pair of skis would be more compatible with my current skiing habits.
I just brought my skis in for a massive retune/sharpening/etc, desperately
needed, so it will be interesting to see if I still think that way after all
the work.

--
monique
Longmont, CO

Monique Y. Mudama wrote:
(snip)

Honestly, I believe that all of the above is probably of less importance than
my skiing technique. I tend to "haul" on the skis to force them to turn; I
think I'm fighting the mountain. When instructors, friends, etc, try to get
me to feel the point where my boots are providing all of my support, I never
seem to find it, whether on my old boots (salomon evolution) or my new
(salomon women's xwave 8). It *always* seems like my quads are involved.

So, I'll add a couple of things to my previous post.

Sore quads as you describe is *often* a sign of being in the
back seat.

Sore quads as you describe is *often* a sign of being a little
dehydrated.

Feeling like you are "hauling" on the skis or "fighting the
mountain" is often a sign of being in the backseat.

Has anyone shown you drills for getting your hands forward?

If you can't see your hands you are probably in the back seat.

Do your hands move excessively? When you "crank" a turn, does
one of your hands move behind you? Both hands should be visible
all the time and movement is mostly from the wrist, ticking
the pole on the snow as a timing move. Nothing more. Of course
when you are horsing around, other things happen.

VtSkier

On 2005-01-10, VtSkier penned:
Monique Y. Mudama wrote: (snip)

Honestly, I believe that all of the above is probably of less importance
than my skiing technique. I tend to "haul" on the skis to force them to
turn; I think I'm fighting the mountain. When instructors, friends, etc,
try to get me to feel the point where my boots are providing all of my
support, I never seem to find it, whether on my old boots (salomon
evolution) or my new (salomon women's xwave 8). It *always* seems like my
quads are involved.

So, I'll add a couple of things to my previous post.

Sore quads as you describe is *often* a sign of being in the back seat.

Sore quads as you describe is *often* a sign of being a little dehydrated.

Feeling like you are "hauling" on the skis or "fighting the mountain" is
often a sign of being in the backseat.

Hrmm, there's a common thread there somewhere ... if only I could find it ...

I've started carrying a camelbak, and I'm sure it helps, but I'm also sure I
don't stay as hydrated as I should.

Has anyone shown you drills for getting your hands forward?

I've certainly worked on getting my hands forward. I tend to forget about it
while focusing the other 400 things I'm supposed to do, though. I'll try to
move it up my list.

If you can't see your hands you are probably in the back seat.

Does peripheral vision count? *grin*

Actually, now that you mention it, I think I am turning my body way too far
while going down the hill. This may be because I'm turning my skis way too
far, though. Should my body stay facing down the hill at all times, or should
it be in line with my skis? I've heard conflicting reports. I think it's the
former?

Do your hands move excessively? When you "crank" a turn, does one of your
hands move behind you? Both hands should be visible all the time and
movement is mostly from the wrist, ticking the pole on the snow as a timing
move. Nothing more. Of course when you are horsing around, other things
happen.

I think I tend to "drag" my poles: I may remember to reach out to pole, but
then I don't remember to pick the pole up right away as I go past that spot.

--
monique
Longmont, CO

Monique Y. Mudama wrote:
On 2005-01-10, VtSkier penned:

Monique Y. Mudama wrote: (snip)

Honestly, I believe that all of the above is probably of less importance
than my skiing technique. I tend to "haul" on the skis to force them to
turn; I think I'm fighting the mountain. When instructors, friends, etc,
try to get me to feel the point where my boots are providing all of my
support, I never seem to find it, whether on my old boots (salomon
evolution) or my new (salomon women's xwave 8). It *always* seems like my
quads are involved.


So, I'll add a couple of things to my previous post.

Sore quads as you describe is *often* a sign of being in the back seat.

Sore quads as you describe is *often* a sign of being a little dehydrated.

Feeling like you are "hauling" on the skis or "fighting the mountain" is
often a sign of being in the backseat.


Hrmm, there's a common thread there somewhere ... if only I could find it ...

I think you just did.

I've started carrying a camelbak, and I'm sure it helps, but I'm also sure I
don't stay as hydrated as I should.

I'm on and off so often that I don't bother to carry water.
Every patrol shack that I need to go into to sign in/out
has a water cooler so I don't add external water weight,
but if you don't do that, then by all means carry water and
the camelbak is the best way by far.

Has anyone shown you drills for getting your hands forward?


I've certainly worked on getting my hands forward. I tend to forget about it
while focusing the other 400 things I'm supposed to do, though. I'll try to
move it up my list.

Where your hands are, other things will follow.

If you can't see your hands you are probably in the back seat.


Does peripheral vision count? *grin*

No.

Actually, now that you mention it, I think I am turning my body way too far
while going down the hill. This may be because I'm turning my skis way too
far, though. Should my body stay facing down the hill at all times, or should
it be in line with my skis? I've heard conflicting reports. I think it's the
former?

That's part of the question below about hands moving excessively.
Generally, but not necessarily always, your body should be facing
as nearly down the fall line as it can. If you are at close to
90 degrees to the fall line, this is clearly excessive, but trying
to keep the upper body quiet (including your hands) and allowing
you lower half to move back and forth in the turns is the ideal.

Do your hands move excessively? When you "crank" a turn, does one of your
hands move behind you? Both hands should be visible all the time and
movement is mostly from the wrist, ticking the pole on the snow as a timing
move. Nothing more. Of course when you are horsing around, other things
happen.

If your "pole plant" is more than a tick, you will often force
yourself into the back seat. Especially if your poles are bit
too long.

I think I tend to "drag" my poles: I may remember to reach out to pole, but
then I don't remember to pick the pole up right away as I go past that spot.

I've been dragging my poles for 50 years, don't worry about it. Do
worry about allowing you hand to come behind you as you complete
your turn. You will fall into the back seat if you do it. I have
actually thought about dragging my poles a bit. It's always the
inside pole (see another thread in another location to see what
I mean by "inside", it's relative to the turn). Seems like most
folks consider it a bad habit. I find the tactile sensation of
my pole tip moving through the snow to be a cue which helps my
balance. I certainly don't DRAG it hard enough to cause any
actual force against my body.

I'm also one of those guys who put their hands behind the back
with the thumbs locked, body slightly bent forward and with skis
fairly wide apart when trying to make time on a flat runout.
Don't know why, been doing it since I thought it looked Kewl
30 odd years ago. Now it's a habit.

I've said a lot about hands. Putting them and keeping them
where they belong and actually using them very little will cure
many of the "problems" you are describing.

Hope this helps.
VtSkier