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#11
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On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 21:45:58 +1000, Chris Cole
wrote: unsportsmanlike and unethical behaviour. Cops shouldn't be involved in simply because someone is unsportsmanlike or unethical. Whether they are in and of themselves illegal is irrelevant. Their presence in such a context makes it very very likely that they are being employed to illegal ends. So by your logic there is at least one member of the US ski team that should be taken in by the cops. Brilliant. JT **************************** Remove "remove" to reply Visit http://www.jt10000.com **************************** |
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#12
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Since you put words into my mouth -- suggesting I only want police to sit in their office -- I'll put words in yours: If someone uses syringes or glucose the police should take them in for questioning. Brilliant. It's a question of the probability of what they're doing with syringes and IV gear, not whether they're intrinsically legal or not. Is an athlete at an olympic games who is found with parenteral drug administration equipment more likely to have a valid non-cheating reason for possessing them, in that place at that time in that context, or are they more likely to be engaged in unsportsmanlike endeavours? It's _possible_ they could have had a valid reason. However, if they did, then one would presume they might not toss it all out the window and then leave town, no? Depending on your line of work one might think of it in terms of clinical index of suspicion, probable cause, burden of proof, or establishment (or not) of reasonable doubt. It may only be circumstantial evidence of a misdeed, but possession of such equipment at an elite athletic gathering would have to be considered by any reasonably intelligent individual to represent a very high likelihood of illegal or at least unsportsmanlike and unethical behaviour. electricity at 5 times the normal rate, they should just ignore it, because after all, electricity is perfectly legal to use... they couldn't possibly be doing something suspicious like growing pot. Please don't set up straw men like "couldn't possibly." I haven't said the Austrians "couldn't possibly" be doping, have I? I've simply asked if glucose or syringes are illegal. Are they? Whether they are in and of themselves illegal is irrelevant. Their presence in such a context makes it very very likely that they are being employed to illegal ends. Again, kitchen knives aren't illegal but if I'm found tossing a blood-stained one out the window very close to the scene of a recent stabbing, would you consider it unreasonable to arrest me? In the electricity situtation you mention above, the police can watch the house or see if there are any other things that indicate drug production. Sure, it's *possible* pot is being grown. But I would strongly object to someone being taken to a policy station, without access to a lawyer, for simply using more electricity than normal. I personally don't want to live in a society where simple suspicions like that results in being taken out of a home or out of a hotel room by the police. That's pretty scary. The electricity analogy was a fairly poor one. activity or doping activity. Unless syringes and glucose are against the law or against the rules of sport. Are they? You just keep missing the point. The legality or otherwise of IV equipment is not relevant to the argument at hand. Cheers, Chris |
#13
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On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 21:53:30 +1000, Chris Cole
wrote: What about severe diarrhea and a race later that day? That would be most unfortunate, and a good reason for intravenous rehydration. Most people would probably withdraw from an event, but being the olympics... maybe not. =) In that case, however, it would be most unusual to take IV infusion gear "home" with you. Have you travelled with top-level sports teams? I haven't, but have a couple friends who have, and from what I understand, it makes sense to have a lot of medical equipment with the team, if they have a doctor and can afford to transport it. Diarrhoea is not a rare thing when traveling and training hard. Nor is deydration. Why should a team waste the time sending someone to a hospital, where other doctors are involved, if their own doctor can more conveniently treat the problem? It would be more conventional to be treated in a hospital, clinic or surgery. It is very unusual to send anyone home with IV access in place for acute illnesses. Top-level sports, where you are traveling, have tremendous time pressures and have a doctor with you, and are subjecting the athlete to tremendous stresses are *not* conventional situations. Even the medecine that the atheletes can and cannot take are not conventional insofar as a lot of normal stuff is banned. While possible that one's own team doctor could institute such therapy in the athlete's room, it would be a less than brilliant option, Given the attention given to doping allegations let alone proven cases of the same, it would seem much more prudent to True, there is a cycle of suspicion now. But by the same token, I could easily see the team saying, "Don't mention it, we don't want to see headlines saying 'skiers being medicated in their rooms' in the papers tomorrow." JT **************************** Remove "remove" to reply Visit http://www.jt10000.com **************************** |
#14
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What about severe diarrhea and a race later that day? That would be most unfortunate, and a good reason for intravenous rehydration. Most people would probably withdraw from an event, but being the olympics... maybe not. =) In that case, however, it would be most unusual to take IV infusion gear "home" with you. It would be more conventional to be treated in a hospital, clinic or surgery. It is very unusual to send anyone home with IV access in place for acute illnesses. While possible that one's own team doctor could institute such therapy in the athlete's room, it would be a less than brilliant option, particularly if doing so without notifying the relevant organisers/administrators. Given the attention given to doping allegations let alone proven cases of the same, it would seem much more prudent to seek external medical opinion, treatment, or at least have someone outside the team make a note that a certain athlete is receiving a certain treatment for valid medical reasons. Regards, Chris |
#15
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How do you explain Walter Mayer being allowed to hang around by
the team and individuals and even be a personal coach, even tho he's been banned by the IOC until at least 2010? The issue in Italy is more complicated because athletic drug use is immediately a police matter by law. That was known ahead of time and a deal worked out with the IOC, however tenuous, so that the police didn't just start showing up and arresting people. But in this case they were requested by the IOC. Why IOC security itself couldn't have just shown up somewhat earlier in the evening is not clear to me, tho they may not be equipped for such an extensive operation, one involving citizens of other countries. Clearly, the continuing involvement of Walter Mayer itself created a primie facie case that there was something not on the up and up going on. What is your alternative for handling the situation? Gene John Forrest Tomlinson wrote: On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 21:45:58 +1000, Chris Cole wrote: unsportsmanlike and unethical behaviour. Cops shouldn't be involved in simply because someone is unsportsmanlike or unethical. Whether they are in and of themselves illegal is irrelevant. Their presence in such a context makes it very very likely that they are being employed to illegal ends. So by your logic there is at least one member of the US ski team that should be taken in by the cops. Brilliant. JT **************************** Remove "remove" to reply Visit http://www.jt10000.com **************************** |
#16
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There was more than just syringes and glucose. There were drugs found.
The blood equipment went beyond what was need for an IV drip. The Austrian ski federation has already admitted that two skiers were using proscribed methods. This never would have happened without the action taken by the authorities. In Canada we have much more liberal drug laws than the States, but the police can enter a house if they have circumstantial evidence, like energy useage patterns. There have been enough cases where motorbike gangs have purchased suburban houses to use as grow-ops and the neighbours figure out what is going on before the cops and alert them - it happend to a friend of mine recently where an Asian gang were using a house across the street from them . The cops had no idea about that particular house. The situation with the Austrians was similiar. Somebody saw enough to draw suspicion and given the history of the one of the parties involved, they took reasonable action. I really can't see what the problem is. John Forrest Tomlinson wrote: On 22 Feb 2006 07:25:08 -0800, "cpella" wrote: Cool. You've hit on a new approach to enforcement. Instead of going out and doing investigations and being pro-active - because there's all that work involved - the agencies can sit in an office and wait for the miscreants to come down and give themselves up. Wow! I wonder why WADA didn't think of that. And if somebody at the electrical utility notices that a certain residence has started using electricity at 5 times the normal rate, they should just ignore it, because after all, electricity is perfectly legal to use... they couldn't possibly be doing something suspicious like growing pot. Since you put words into my mouth -- suggesting I only want police to sit in their office -- I'll put words in yours: If someone uses syringes or glucose the police should take them in for questioning. Brilliant. electricity at 5 times the normal rate, they should just ignore it, because after all, electricity is perfectly legal to use... they couldn't possibly be doing something suspicious like growing pot. Please don't set up straw men like "couldn't possibly." I haven't said the Austrians "couldn't possibly" be doping, have I? I've simply asked if glucose or syringes are illegal. Are they? In the electricity situtation you mention above, the police can watch the house or see if there are any other things that indicate drug production. Sure, it's *possible* pot is being grown. But I would strongly object to someone being taken to a policy station, without access to a lawyer, for simply using more electricity than normal. I personally don't want to live in a society where simple suspicions like that results in being taken out of a home or out of a hotel room by the police. That's pretty scary. In the case of the Austrian ski team, the coach is banned from working at the Olympics. OK -- so grab him. Syringes raise suspicions. OK -- so watch the athletes and see if they actually do anything illegal. Check their drug tests carefully. But don't report those things *after* the athletes are detained as if they demonstrate illegal activity or doping activity. Unless syringes and glucose are against the law or against the rules of sport. Are they? JFT **************************** Remove "remove" to reply Visit http://www.jt10000.com **************************** |
#17
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On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 07:17:25 -0600, Gene Goldenfeld
wrote: How do you explain Walter Mayer being allowed to hang around by the team and individuals and even be a personal coach, even tho he's been banned by the IOC until at least 2010? I don't. That's against the rules. I haven't argued that the Austrians aren't doping -- we don't know yet. They well could be.. I am just saying that lumping legitimate food and medical equipment in with doping is lame. What is your alternative for handling the situation? Catch Mayer and punish him. Observe the test values of the athletes very closely. JT **************************** Remove "remove" to reply Visit http://www.jt10000.com **************************** |
#18
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From the news. The Austrians admit themselves that the equipment should
not have been there. quote The head of the Austrian Ski Federation is meeting an Italian prosecutor probing a possible use of illegal substances or methods by Olympic athletes on Thursday, a Federation spokesman said. "He is in Turin, meeting with the prosecutor," a federation spokesman said. His lawyer called and said he should come to Turin to see the prosecutor and he is now with both of them." Police on Saturday raided the houses of the Austrian Olympic biathletes and cross-country skiers, confiscated syringes, medication and other material, while controllers tested 10 athletes for doping. The raid was triggered by the presence of Austrian coach Walter Mayer, who was banned from the Olympic Games up to and including the Winter Olympics in 2010 for his role in a blood transfusion scandal at Salt Lake City in 2002. Doping tests were carried out on ten Austrian athletes after the raids on Saturday. International Olympic Committee (IOC) spokeswoman Giselle Davies told a news conference on Thursday the results of the tests would be out soon. "One would imagine that we would have the test results before the Games are over," she said. Austria fears the IOC could ban it altogether from future Olympics Games after the doping scandal. The Austrian Olympic Committee has launched a probe of its own into Mayer, who was detained by police on his way back to Austria after he tried to ram a police roadblock. He has now been admitted to a psychiatric hospital. The IOC has said it will also set up a disciplinary commission into the affair. "People are thinking about punishing us, even about banning us," Austrian Olympic Committee secretary general Heinz Jungwirth told Austrian news agency APA on Thursday. "We want to avoid that. The damage of a ban would be impossible to make good again. "There's a storm brewing at the IOC. Whether the doping tests are positive or negative doesn't matter," Jungwirth said. "There was equipment found that was clearly not allowed, including equipment for blood transfusions." /quote Furthermo quote Jungwirth told Reuters coach Emil Hoch, who also disappeared shortly after the raids, would be banned from future Olympics. "We've suspended him and it certainly won't be just for these Olympics," he said. /unquote |
#19
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The incident happened days ago and theres been no published report since.
Its that very secrecy that I find so annoying. In the WADA tests this season on WC competitors some results were made known at the time in a genuine attempt to inform the skiworld and the general public. Then it became obvious that other results were not made known, an incident had obviously taken place but the curtain had come down and the skiworld and general public were not to be told. Its the lack of information from 'the people up there' thats prompted the comments on this thread. |
#20
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The fact that you write "The Austrians admit themselves that the
equipment should not have been there" without referring to the stuff I objected lumping in as doping material (glucose and syringes) points to a certain confusion on your part about what is legal, what is against the rules of the sport, and what is illegal. As does the fact that feel it is important to mention, in an apparent response to me, that "There was more than just syringes and glucose. There were drugs found. The blood equipment went beyond what was need for an IV drip" shows the same thing. It would be a lot better to report on stuff that was found that is actually against the rules or against the law -- like banned drugs found or blood transfusion equipment. The next time you suggest someone is doing something illegal and lump in stuff that is not illegal, you should expect to be questioned about it. Don't get indigant when someone points out to you that glucose and syringes are not themselves against the rules of the sport. Unless you want to confuse things further. Speaking of confusion, what does "There were drugs found" mean? Does it mean EPO? Aspirin? Ephedrine? Melatonin? Insulin? What? At least let us know if the drugs were banned or illegal. I have drugs in my home and often travel with drugs. I'll bet you do too. "There was equipment found that was clearly not allowed, including equipment for blood transfusions." The statement above is useful information. Reporting on glucose being found is not. the police can enter a house if they have circumstantial evidence, like energy useage patterns. That sucks. I hope that if my home is ever raided and nothing illegal is found you won't just report that "lighting equipment and drugs were found." JFT **************************** Remove "remove" to reply Visit http://www.jt10000.com **************************** |
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