Swix HF10 never

Mark,

You are right and I didn't argue about HF8 used for _durability_. I
was surprised that you cited dirt (item #1 on your list of reasons) as
the main reason for using HF8, not HF10. It seemed more logical to me
to use a BD product for that purpose and it appears that you did
indeed use it. Sorry about misunderstanding. I didn't mean to
challenge your expertise. Congratulations with your race result!

(Mark) wrote in message . com...
You can disagree, but here are two factors which back up my statement:
1) I had great skis yesterday during the Gold Rush (even during the
3rd lap), and one of my better Gold Rush results, using a combination
of HF8 and HFBD8 as an underlayer for CERA 8 mixed with some CERA 10.
Calling the use of HF8 a "mistake" is ludicrous. It's usually better
to mix BD with straight HF for the best results. Toko Moly as an
underlayer is also an excellent choice as well, but that's all it is -
an underlayer for the HF line of either Toko or Swix (or any other
high fluoro of choice). You still need the HF layer to bond well to
the pure fluoro.
2) The Subaru team stays in my home before the Gold Rush and Great
Race, so I get to discuss wax preparation with them. Dirt was an
issue, and was a large factor in the wax decision.

Even though it was warm in the morning, the first lap of the race was
pretty fast and icy. I have to ask if you skied the race, because
saying that using HF8 was a mistake makes me think that you weren't
out there at 8 am. And yes, they did an excellent job of snow
preparation by blading off a bit of the top of the course so it was a
bit cleaner than expected. The course really skied well, even into the
2 1/2 hour mark.

Mark

(TahoeXCSkier) wrote in message . com...
I would disagree. If dirt was the priority, SWIX makes BD line of HF
waxes which would work better than HF8 (BD contains graphite and
possibly molybdenum). I think they just tried to cover a wider range
of temperatures because of the early start of this race. By the way,
using HF8 this morning was a mistake. This morning it was 34-36
degrees at around 8:00 a.m. as opposed to previous mornings (was 28-32
and icy).

Toko HF Moly as an underlayer would've worked so much better. ...

BTW, skiing at Royal Gorge yesterday I was actually surprised how
little dirt they had considering this unusual weather. I expected it
to be much worse. (it was still pretty dirty, of course ))

(Mark) wrote in message om...
Let me put some first-hand experience to this subject...

There are TWO reasons to go with HF 8 as opposed to HF 10 as an
underlayer for Cera for the Gold Rush. 1) DIRT! 2) durability

Because we've had such an incredible warm spell, and it hasn't even
hinted at any new snow since the very beginning of March, the snow
conditions for the Gold Rush on Sunday are quite dirty. The thing that
will slow our skis down the MOST will be dirt accumulation (pine sap,
pollutant, etc.) and not the warmth of the snow. The theory is that HF
8, being a harder wax, will accumulate less dirt on the skis, and the
actual glide will be achieved through the use of Cera and structure.
Even structure is an issue, as the theory that a finer grind structure
and cross hatch stone grind will attract more dirt, so the call is for
a more linear grind of wider proportions. IF the weather was the same,
but we were on clean, newer snow, there's no doubt we'd be on
HF10/Cera10 with an aggressive stone grind structure, with a rill over
the top of it. Durability is certainly an issue, being that the first
lap will be in harder, icier conditions, but the main reason for going
harder with the underlying wax is dirt repellency. The reason you
always use HF under pure fluoro is that the pure fluoro must have
fluoro molecules under it to bond. The pure fluoro will not bond well
to hydrocarbon based waxes or to a bare base.

But for tomorrow, SUNSCREEN will be the critical element of the day.
It will be slow, sloppy and dirty by the third lap, and the strongest
will survive. That's why we race, anyway, right?

HF 8, being a harder wax, will pick up less dirt than HF 10, being a
softer wax. That goes for Toko Red vs.Yellow, Solda Orange vs. Purple,
etc. BD, having graphite/moly/whatever, will help to repel the dirt by
allowing the ski to dump off static charges that hold the dirt in, but
it certainly doesn't do it all. The harder waxes don't allow the dirt
to penetrate as easily, and that's why they're used in conditions that
would seem to call for a warmer wax.

Mark

(TahoeXCSkier) wrote in message . com...
Mark,

You are right and I didn't argue about HF8 used for _durability_. I
was surprised that you cited dirt (item #1 on your list of reasons) as
the main reason for using HF8, not HF10. It seemed more logical to me
to use a BD product for that purpose and it appears that you did
indeed use it. Sorry about misunderstanding. I didn't mean to
challenge your expertise. Congratulations with your race result!

Harder wax has nothing to do with picking/repelling dirt. Harder wax
is more resistant to dry friction. Higher fluorine content repels
water, graphite assures dirt repellency since it carries the same
polarity charge as dirt does (negative).

HF8 contains less fluorine than HF10, which is OK, because the top
layer of wax is 100% fluro. Slightly less fluorine in wax underlayer
is still sufficient to bond Jetstream or whatever else you iron or
cork-in. Harder underlayer assures friction resistance, which is an
issue when conditions are icy (early morning).

Here is proof from Toko:
"In dirty snow, the primary concern is keeping the skis clean. Once
skis become dirty, they will be slow in any condition, especially wet
snow when the most dirt is usually found. In these conditions, the
recommendation is to wax with LF Molybdenum (wet dirty snow) or LF
Blue (cold dirty snow) followed by HF Molybdenum (wet dirty snow) or
LF Molybdenum (cold dirty snow) followed by JetStream Old Snow ironed
in, brushed out, and polished, followed by JetStream Old Snow lightly
rubbed on and polished (all dirty snow conditions"
http://www.tokous.com/Manuals/TechManualLR.htm
"The softer fluorinated waxes are very hydrophobic (water repellent)
making for faster skis in these conditions...[..]the softer waxes such
as yellow (for conditions containing more water) contain more Fluorine
than the harder waxes.[...]"
http://www.tokous.com/Chemical%20Mak...lide%20Wax.htm

Torbjorn Karlsen also confirmed that his recommendation to use Solda
Orange as an underlayer instead of Yellow was because of the race
distance (purely for durability).


(Mark) wrote in message . com...
HF 8, being a harder wax, will pick up less dirt than HF 10, being a
softer wax. That goes for Toko Red vs.Yellow, Solda Orange vs. Purple,
etc. BD, having graphite/moly/whatever, will help to repel the dirt by
allowing the ski to dump off static charges that hold the dirt in, but
it certainly doesn't do it all. The harder waxes don't allow the dirt
to penetrate as easily, and that's why they're used in conditions that
would seem to call for a warmer wax.

Mark

(TahoeXCSkier) wrote in message . com...
Mark,

You are right and I didn't argue about HF8 used for _durability_. I
was surprised that you cited dirt (item #1 on your list of reasons) as
the main reason for using HF8, not HF10. It seemed more logical to me
to use a BD product for that purpose and it appears that you did
indeed use it. Sorry about misunderstanding. I didn't mean to
challenge your expertise. Congratulations with your race result!