another way to train for skating on a bicycle?

"Ken Roberts" schreef in bericht
...

Because if switching to a new kind of pedal could increase my Power output
by 10% more Watts average most of the time while I'm on my bicycle, that's
something I want.
I think you could use that 10% to make stronger sprints, and more easily get
up steep hills in a big gear, but over a long ride, your preferred heartrate
will decide your riding pace. Using the hip mucles may be more or less
efficient that directing the same amount of force just through the typical
cycling muscles, which might make you ever so slightly faster or slower
using the 3D pedals.
However I do believe that it should help keep those muscles trained,
especially over the long duration of a bike epic. That is, if you don't find
yourself resting halfway a long hill to give your hips a break. When on that
ergotrainer, I quickly had a serious burning going on there.

I wonder if some home engineering could make a 3D pedal.
Start out would a low-profile platform with a bent spindle, so it hangs down
on the side a bit.
A second flatform, correct on one side for the bend, mounted onto it with
some sort of sliding rail system. A strong spring keeping the top platform
to the inside, unless pushed down with a given force. Can be made to work,
just not so smooth operation I'm affraid. One could even engineer a curve in
the system, so the foot not just moves, but also turns to the outside.
This last feature to keep it on-ski topic.

Jan Gerrit Klok wrote
I think you could use that 10% [ extra power from using new muscles]
to make stronger sprints, and more easily get up steep hills in a big
gear,
but over a long ride, your preferred heartrate will decide your riding
pace.

It will be interesting to see if the folks on the rec.bicycling.tech
newsgroup make similar arguments, since I posted a question about "3D
pedals - cranks", thanks to Joseph and JFT's advice.

But if bicycling somehow improves my hip abduction muscles, the same
argument applies to if or how they could help my ski-skating. So let me ask:

How is it that my "preferred heartrate" will determine my overall pace in a
3-hour ski marathon? without regard to any improved fitness in my hip
abduction muscles?

Ken
____________________________________
Jan Gerrit Klok wrote
Ken Roberts schreef
Because if switching to a new kind of pedal could increase my Power
output
by 10% more Watts average most of the time while I'm on my bicycle,
that's
something I want.
I think you could use that 10% to make stronger sprints, and more easily
get
up steep hills in a big gear, but over a long ride, your preferred
heartrate
will decide your riding pace. Using the hip mucles may be more or less
efficient that directing the same amount of force just through the typical
cycling muscles, which might make you ever so slightly faster or slower
using the 3D pedals.
However I do believe that it should help keep those muscles trained,
especially over the long duration of a bike epic. That is, if you don't
find
yourself resting halfway a long hill to give your hips a break. When on
that
ergotrainer, I quickly had a serious burning going on there.

Ken Roberts wrote:
Jan Gerrit Klok wrote
I think you could use that 10% [ extra power from using new muscles]
to make stronger sprints, and more easily get up steep hills in a big
gear,
but over a long ride, your preferred heartrate will decide your riding
pace.

It will be interesting to see if the folks on the rec.bicycling.tech
newsgroup make similar arguments, since I posted a question about "3D
pedals - cranks", thanks to Joseph and JFT's advice.

But if bicycling somehow improves my hip abduction muscles, the same
argument applies to if or how they could help my ski-skating. So let me ask:

How is it that my "preferred heartrate" will determine my overall pace in a
3-hour ski marathon? without regard to any improved fitness in my hip
abduction muscles?

Ken

This is an interesting parallel to a post I made a few days ago in
rec.bicycles.tech about how pedaling technique may affect lactate
threshold and the power output at threshold. The same should hold true
for any endurance sport. My theory is that elite level athletes get
their LT to be at a higher percentage of their VO2max than hobbyists
partially due to their more evenly distributed use of muscles.

In other words a skier (or cyclist) who relys solely on one small group
of muscles (due to poor or incorrect technique) may quickly exhaust
that group of muscles ability to process oxygen, and thus saturate the
blood stream with lactic acid. If by means of technique changes, more
muscles can be brought to bear on the task, the over all power output
could potentially be raised by not having the weak-link muscles
saturate the bloodstream so much earlier than necessary. Basically it
is just a statement of the obvious; efficiency of motion helps power
output at sub maximal efforts. The trick is of course determinig the
proper technique that distributes the work load properly, and training
the mucsles to be up to the task.

The way I see it, "preferred heart rate" depends upon technique almost
as much as it does on which discipline. As an example, my poor classic
technique may over emphasize certain muscles such that they saturate my
bloodstream with lactic acid when exerting at certain level and my HR
is at 160. If I were to improve my technique such that I was not
over-using these weak-link muscles, it may be that my blood does not
become saturated before my HR reaches 165, and my total effective power
would go up.

So I would say that even disregarding potential ups and downs of
cardio-vascular fitness, a preferred heart rate (or presumed LT HR
value) for any given dicipline is potentially highly dependant upon
technique, at least until the athlete's technique is so well developed
that any changes are minimal.

I think having more muscles to spread the load to is the first step in
being able to spread the load to them!

Joseph

____________________________________
Jan Gerrit Klok wrote
Ken Roberts schreef
Because if switching to a new kind of pedal could increase my Power
output
by 10% more Watts average most of the time while I'm on my bicycle,
that's
something I want.
I think you could use that 10% to make stronger sprints, and more easily
get
up steep hills in a big gear, but over a long ride, your preferred
heartrate
will decide your riding pace. Using the hip mucles may be more or less
efficient that directing the same amount of force just through the typical
cycling muscles, which might make you ever so slightly faster or slower
using the 3D pedals.
However I do believe that it should help keep those muscles trained,
especially over the long duration of a bike epic. That is, if you don't
find
yourself resting halfway a long hill to give your hips a break. When on
that
ergotrainer, I quickly had a serious burning going on there.

schreef in bericht
oups.com...
How is it that my "preferred heartrate" will determine my overall pace
in a
3-hour ski marathon? without regard to any improved fitness in my hip
abduction muscles?

Ken

I think having more muscles to spread the load to is the first step in
being able to spread the load to them!

Joseph
For skiing, I guess indeed technique is super important. My experience in
cycling is that in a 3-hour marathon I just pedal along at a heartrate a bit
under threshold, and get more tire along the way. If I haven't overdone the
climbing/overtaking, I don't get cramps (I get those), and make the finish
in my best possible time.
As efforts get longer, I suppose it helps to have more mucles that are up to
the task of doing their share of the work. I notice that if my legs give up
on a time rollerski lap, I can double pole some without losing much speed,
while recovering the legs, and then get back to skating. Spreading the load.

Joseph is right, well developped muscles allow the body to stay lactate-free
at higher heartrates. Also, especially while running occasionally, I notice
that as I train running muscles better, and this goes over just a few runs,
I get much higher speeds from the same heartrate, the muscles seems to
require less oxygen for the job, have gotten more efficient.

I think my statement of the cardio system being the limiting factor goes
mostly for shorter workouts with less technique-related propulsion. Like the
1-to-2 hour MTB races I'm used to. In good shape, you pretty much "park"
your heart at the threshold, and ride as hard as you can, pretty much sprint
everywhere. More mucles won't make ME much faster in such a race I would
think, unless they are more efficient at delivering propulsion power in
terms of load on the cardio system. Sprints will be faster if more muscles
can be used, but heartrate will shoot up more, and you'll need more recovery
time to prevent complete lactate saturation.
I notice all this as I improve my skating technique. I use more and more
muscles, especially in the legs, but also my heartrate goes up too. Legs
lactate more quickly if I am not careful.

J

Joseph wrote
... elite level athletes get their LT to be at a higher percentage
of their VO2max partially due to their more evenly distributed
use of muscles . . .
having more muscles to spread the load to is the first step

I think my theory is close to the same. You'd think that if any human
propulsive motion was hitting some "genetic maximum" of central
cardio-vascular capacity, it would be cross-country skiing with poling. If
so, you might guess that the World Cup winners would simplify their
technique, and use only the muscle moves that most efficiently utilize their
"scarce resource" of Central CV.

Instead what I see in videos of the fastest skiers is them taking every
opportunity to use every little muscle-move that could possibly add
propulsive power without interfering with other moves. Which better fits
Joseph's theory of spreading the LT burden.

My latest guessing is that a key limiting factor on performance is the
capacity of the different "peripheral transport" systems -- networks of
capillaries for transporting oxygen into and waste products out from the
various muscle groups being used for propulsion. You can take in all the
oxygen you want thru the lungs, but only so many red blood cells can fit
through those narrow pipes so fast to get it to the muscle cells doing the
key work.

The problem is that once you've done a good job of training a major muscle
group like the hip extensors, the density of capillaries near it has gotten
much closer to its biological limit, so the incremental biological cost of
increasing the density further gets high. A more effective next step in
development is to find an under-utilized muscle group with lots of open
"real estate" nearby with a sparse network of capillaries, so the biological
cost of raising the density is lower.

Raising the hematocrit level by using an altitude room or EPO gives a quick
boost to the capacity of all those "peripheral transport" systems -- by
enabling the same number of red blood cells going through the same narrow
pipes to carry in more oxygen per cell.

Ken

Ken Roberts wrote:
Joseph wrote
... elite level athletes get their LT to be at a higher percentage
of their VO2max partially due to their more evenly distributed
use of muscles . . .
having more muscles to spread the load to is the first step

I think my theory is close to the same. You'd think that if any human
propulsive motion was hitting some "genetic maximum" of central
cardio-vascular capacity, it would be cross-country skiing with poling. If
so, you might guess that the World Cup winners would simplify their
technique, and use only the muscle moves that most efficiently utilize their
"scarce resource" of Central CV.

Instead what I see in videos of the fastest skiers is them taking every
opportunity to use every little muscle-move that could possibly add
propulsive power without interfering with other moves. Which better fits
Joseph's theory of spreading the LT burden.

I'm sure this is what contributes to their ability to produce a large
amount of power comensurate with the total blood oxygen volume their
hearts can deliver. I'll bet some efficiency measuremetns of O2 per
Watt would also show very little waste, as not so much O2 would be
wasted processing lactic acid.

My latest guessing is that a key limiting factor on performance is the
capacity of the different "peripheral transport" systems -- networks of
capillaries for transporting oxygen into and waste products out from the
various muscle groups being used for propulsion. You can take in all the
oxygen you want thru the lungs, but only so many red blood cells can fit
through those narrow pipes so fast to get it to the muscle cells doing the
key work.

This "specificity" explains why some well-trained (and less so!) people
in one discipline are not necessarily able to fully utilize their
cardio-vascular fitness in another discipline. I am a good example.
When I first started skiing this last season, I noticed I could not get
my HR over about 160. I would be fried. But on a bike I could easily
get to 180. My heart had well more capacity than my body could use for
skiing, as my lack of capillary development in key areas as well as
poor technique, and relatively poor muscle strength in some places
caused a bottle-neck somplace which pumped my blood full of lactic acid
to such a degree that I would have to stop. As the season progressed, a
combination of better technique, undoubted capilary development, and
most noticably a large amount of muscle development in various places,
my ability to get my HR up increased. I wonder what proportion each
contributed?

The problem is that once you've done a good job of training a major muscle
group like the hip extensors, the density of capillaries near it has gotten
much closer to its biological limit, so the incremental biological cost of
increasing the density further gets high. A more effective next step in
development is to find an under-utilized muscle group with lots of open
"real estate" nearby with a sparse network of capillaries, so the biological
cost of raising the density is lower.

Agree. I wonder if bulky muscles help in this regard (discounting the
penalty of greater weight)?

Raising the hematocrit level by using an altitude room or EPO gives a quick
boost to the capacity of all those "peripheral transport" systems -- by
enabling the same number of red blood cells going through the same narrow
pipes to carry in more oxygen per cell.


Not as much fun, though...

Joseph