Carving Technique

Paul Schofield wrote:
"Nick Hounsome" wrote in message
k...


Snow is MUCH easier than plastic - so much so that I personally don't
think
that it is worth the money for beginners to try to learn on plastic
before they go - learn what skis and boot feel like and do a snow
plough fine but carving no-way.

...snip...

On snow you will be able to travel long distances slowly and smoothly
which
will give you a chance to feel how your body position affects the
skis. In some ways it is more like ice skating than dry slope skiing.


Oh tell me about it, snow is so much more slippy - be prepared Niall!

First time skiing on snow - I'd had 3 x 2 hours on a dry slope - went
up the mountain on a chair lift and inevitably fell off at the top. I
then had to ski under the chair to reach a nice flat piste. Not too
steep I thought, comparing it to the dry slope, and next thing I was
barrelling down the slope far too quickly for my limited ability and
careered right across the piste and into the deep packed snow at the
edge of the piste. After being rescued the instructor told me dryly
that off piste was later in the week. Of course my mates never remind
me of this!

Didn't The Dry-slope Instructor warn you? I always say Snow is about Six
times faster and Six times easier

Mind you last Thursday the lower slopes at Soldeu started to drag like
plastic, But they froze up again


--
Chris *:-)

Downhill Good, Uphill BAD!

www.suffolkvikings.org.uk

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 13:06:55 GMT, "Roy" wrote:


Hi, I agree with Bruce inasmuch as you appear to be over-analysing and not
"doing" or feeling. I disagree with Bruce about use of poles - I think they
are useful in helping one's balance if you use them properly.

And I said as much. But not for carving.

I am not so
sure about keeping muscles tensed - in my view there is no need to, and it
must be tiring!

It's about educating a muscle that was previously unused. After a
while it becomes unconscious, just like the muscles you 'tense' all
the time to stand up straight.

But more than anything I concentrate on shins (and thus knees) forwards

Exactly. Now how do you get them forwards?

FWIW I think carving is nice but I don't let it dictate my skiing.

Quite so. Pure carving has its place and can be quite fun on wide open
motorways, but more importantly the same techniques can be used
elsewhere, for example off-piste in chopped-up snow, mixed with a
little up-lift and rotation where appropriate. Biggest grin I had last
Sunday was when I ripped up one powdery section at stupid speed like
this :-)

There are an almost infinite number of 'different' turn initiations
possible - the real skill comes not of being able to do one or another
type, but of being able to vary them on each turn without conscious
effort.

--
Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
Ski Club of Great Britain - http://www.skiclub.co.uk
All opinions expressed are personal and in no way represent those of the Ski Club.

"NIALLBRUCE" wrote in message
...
I'm having a lot of problems learning how to carve. I know that it's quite
a
complicated exercise so I'm not going to ask exactly how it's done.
Indeed,
I've covered the basics at my ski class (just finishing a 12 week block of
lessons). I'd be very grateful if someone could answer the following
questions:

1. I've been told to move forward diagonally. My instructor said that this
was
in order to make the ski bend. I understand this principle but I don't
know how
to implement it.

- When I move my waist (to set the edges), do I move diagonally forward in
the
opposite direction??
I understand that I've got to make a 'C' shape with my body (if turning
left)
so that my edges can be set without losing my balance but I don't know how
to
develop that further.

I know that I've got to work on making the turns smoother (by pushing down
on
the inside leg to start the next turn) and to be aware of my knees etc too
but
the forward motion is confusing me.

My instructor gave me two exercises to do - one involved throwing my arms
forward diagonally and the other involved making a double pole-plant in
front
of my skis (to ensure that my weight was forward). Nonetheless, without
knowing
exactly WHERE and WHEN to throw my weight, I wasn't able to benefit from
the
exercise.

2. How does the forward (+ diagonal) motion affect my skis? For example,
when
I'm skiing parallel, I try to flex the 'outside' boot. When carving, am I
still
trying to do this? Am I try to flex both boots (since the edge of the ski
will
make the turn). Alternatively, should I just been rolling my weight from
one
ski to the other without 'flexing' the boots at all?

Sorry to be a bit pedantic. I've only got 1 lesson left so am really
trying to
get this right!! Thanks in advance for any help

Niall


I read every post in the thread so far and there are some good tips in there
but I didn't see anything relating to Teaching vs. learning. Let me
explain.... I never got taught to ski really, I had to learn everything
myself. My only teaching consisted of a friend explaining how the snowplough
worked.... after a bit of trial and error I got it. Then I 'learned' how to
ski by watching what others were doing and then having a go myself until I
finally got it.

I really progressed my skiing by watching warren miller type ski films, I
would watch them over and over and really watch and try to work out what
movements were required to ski. The slow motion really shows you how to do a
certain technique. What I would also do is imagine myself skiing, over and
over I would replay it in my head what I needed to do (now you have to know
what to do in the first place). If I had a good turn or did a good set of
moguls I would remember it and think about it on the lift back up and then
try to do it right away.

Niall, From what you have wrote in your post it sounds like you are not
looking towards the final result that you want (carved turn) and then
'learning' from what you are currently doing wrong. Are you trying to
concentrate on position of your body and these little excercises too much???
Have you actually watched a good skiier do some carved turns??? and can you
replay in your mind what those turns look like in slow motion? Can you
imagine yourself doing these turns?

Have you ever watched a downhill skiier preparing for the race? you will see
them with their eyes closed and they use their hands to simulate the ski
positions as they are playing the turns of the course in their mind.


Does anybody else use this type of learning? or have I completly lost
it??????

Paul
PS - Disclaimer: I am not a ski instructor and I may be mad.... this might
be a load of gibberish, it worked for me though!

"Paul" wrote in message
...

Does anybody else use this type of learning? or have I completly lost
it??????

Paul
PS - Disclaimer: I am not a ski instructor and I may be mad.... this might
be a load of gibberish, it worked for me though!

Absolutely!
My personal favourite as the ski season approaches is to go in to
simul-ski-mode on my road bike. When the oportunity arises on a quiet
downhill, I really carve up that tarmac! Legs straight, stand on pedals,
straight bars, lean, cross-overs etc I probably look a right berk!

--
Mike W

Thanks to everyone for their input!!

I do try to envisage myself skiing and think that it is a great way of
improving 'muscle-memory'. It's also not a matter of choice since I live in
Scotland! I've got parallel skiing perfected in my mind and it seems to
translate well on the dendex (the 'toothbrush' diamonds).

I can't imagine the physics of carving perfectly in my mind however so it gets
rather confusing. I've taken the advice given and watched all the carving
videos that I could find online (not many to be honest!). In addition, I
downloaded a photo of Bode Miller during a race - it's now my background.

The majority seem to suggest that I should try to get the skis into position
....and the rest (body) will follow. I also think that the dry-slope isn't
helping.

However, I've got 2 things to try:
a) Trying to keep my weight forward - on the outside ski ...so the edges don't
slip
b) Trying to keep my weight centred over the outside ski - perhaps by pushing
on the inside (later to be outside) ski earlier!?

I'm sure that everything will come together on holiday!!

Thanks
Niall

NIALLBRUCE wrote:
Thanks to everyone for their input!!

I do try to envisage myself skiing and think that it is a great way of
improving 'muscle-memory'. It's also not a matter of choice since I
live in Scotland! I've got parallel skiing perfected in my mind and
it seems to translate well on the dendex (the 'toothbrush' diamonds).

I can't imagine the physics of carving perfectly in my mind however
so it gets rather confusing. I've taken the advice given and watched
all the carving videos that I could find online (not many to be
honest!). In addition, I downloaded a photo of Bode Miller during a
race - it's now my background.

The majority seem to suggest that I should try to get the skis into
position ...and the rest (body) will follow. I also think that the
dry-slope isn't helping.

However, I've got 2 things to try:
a) Trying to keep my weight forward - on the outside ski ...so the
edges don't slip
b) Trying to keep my weight centred over the outside ski - perhaps by
pushing on the inside (later to be outside) ski earlier!?

I'm sure that everything will come together on holiday!!

Thanks
Niall

It is very difficult to carve on a dry slope, I think Dendex has about 40%
of the edge grip that snow has and dry slope rental skis have blunt edges
(so as not to damage the mat) carving also requires momentum to create the
centripetal force that allows you to put the skis on they're edges without
falling over. I could probably teach you how to carve on plastic but it
would probably be rather fightening. 'cos the simplest way to start carving
is to point the skis straight down the slope and just roll them on to their
edges then let the sidecut just create a curve.

--
Chris *:-)

Downhill Good, Uphill BAD!

www.suffolkvikings.org.uk

Originally Posted by Paul

"NIALLBRUCE" wrote in message
...
I'm having a lot of problems learning how to carve. I know that it's quite
a
complicated exercise so I'm not going to ask exactly how it's done.
Indeed,
I've covered the basics at my ski class (just finishing a 12 week block of
lessons). I'd be very grateful if someone could answer the following
questions:

1. I've been told to move forward diagonally. My instructor said that this
was
in order to make the ski bend. I understand this principle but I don't
know how
to implement it.

- When I move my waist (to set the edges), do I move diagonally forward in
the
opposite direction??
I understand that I've got to make a 'C' shape with my body (if turning
left)
so that my edges can be set without losing my balance but I don't know how
to
develop that further.

I know that I've got to work on making the turns smoother (by pushing down
on
the inside leg to start the next turn) and to be aware of my knees etc too
but
the forward motion is confusing me.

My instructor gave me two exercises to do - one involved throwing my arms
forward diagonally and the other involved making a double pole-plant in
front
of my skis (to ensure that my weight was forward). Nonetheless, without
knowing
exactly WHERE and WHEN to throw my weight, I wasn't able to benefit from
the
exercise.

2. How does the forward (+ diagonal) motion affect my skis? For example,
when
I'm skiing parallel, I try to flex the 'outside' boot. When carving, am I
still
trying to do this? Am I try to flex both boots (since the edge of the ski
will
make the turn). Alternatively, should I just been rolling my weight from
one
ski to the other without 'flexing' the boots at all?

Sorry to be a bit pedantic. I've only got 1 lesson left so am really
trying to
get this right!! Thanks in advance for any help

Niall


I read every post in the thread so far and there are some good tips in there
but I didn't see anything relating to Teaching vs. learning. Let me
explain.... I never got taught to ski really, I had to learn everything
myself. My only teaching consisted of a friend explaining how the snowplough
worked.... after a bit of trial and error I got it. Then I 'learned' how to
ski by watching what others were doing and then having a go myself until I
finally got it.

I really progressed my skiing by watching warren miller type ski films, I
would watch them over and over and really watch and try to work out what
movements were required to ski. The slow motion really shows you how to do a
certain technique. What I would also do is imagine myself skiing, over and
over I would replay it in my head what I needed to do (now you have to know
what to do in the first place). If I had a good turn or did a good set of
moguls I would remember it and think about it on the lift back up and then
try to do it right away.

Niall, From what you have wrote in your post it sounds like you are not
looking towards the final result that you want (carved turn) and then
'learning' from what you are currently doing wrong. Are you trying to
concentrate on position of your body and these little excercises too much???
Have you actually watched a good skiier do some carved turns??? and can you
replay in your mind what those turns look like in slow motion? Can you
imagine yourself doing these turns?

Have you ever watched a downhill skiier preparing for the race? you will see
them with their eyes closed and they use their hands to simulate the ski
positions as they are playing the turns of the course in their mind.


Does anybody else use this type of learning? or have I completly lost
it??????

Paul
PS - Disclaimer: I am not a ski instructor and I may be mad.... this might
be a load of gibberish, it worked for me though!

I agree totally.

I had my last lesson about 10 years ago and since then my technique for learning has been exactly the same as yours: mentally dissecting my technique and the technique of 'expert' skiers (usually gained from books and vids) in my mind. I do this on the Tube on the way to work, on the chairlift , in the bath in the chalet etc. Then I endeavour to apply this when I ski and often find that I'm 75% of the way as soon as my skis touch the snow. I have to say that my progress over this period of time has been faster than many of my friends who have religiously followed a programme of formal instruction.

However I do feel that the time has come where I would benefit from someone else have a look at how I'm skiing and give me some tips for improvement. So I would definitely have lessons at some point in the future, though I reckon that I've saved thousands of pounds over the past decade on lessons that are not always that helpful.

In article , Nick Hounsome
wrote:
[snip]
"Carving", however, involves, almost by definition, no pole plant
(or poles) at all, and no dramatic weight-change. -
that's really interesting! Can I conclude that the 'old' pole-plant
could actually be a problem?

The pole plant is brilliant for getting the body weight forward and
downhill - yes you side slip but for me - my biggest improvement step
ever came from forcing myself to reach forward and downhill to plant
a pole - from then on I found steeps held no fear for me. Ok it's not
the end of the road but as an intermediate step it helped me a lot.


But the point is that is not the same type of turn you are discussing.
A carving turn using the full radius of the ski does not require any
pole plant. You just need to tilt the skis on edge and ride the curve
they make in the snow. Your body then adjusts balance to counter the
centripetal force as you accelerate down hill. Carving is all about
changing direction whilst losing the minimum of speed. The best way to
learn this type of turn is on a very wide and not too steep a piste
which is also not very crowded. Start of facing down the slope and then
tilt both skis on edge, once you've started the turn just let your
natural sense of balance resist the forces. To initiate the next turn,
ride out the first turn until the point you are heading across the slope
and then tilt both skis onto the opposite edge. Its a turn that is much
easier once you are moving at a reasonable speed.

e.g. When I'm trying to carve, I need to set my edges but have to
shift my balance the other way ('C' shape) in order to do that. In
the case of turning left, am I correct in thinking that my right
shoulder should be lower - thus contradicting the traditional
pole-plant?

If you're doing a significant pole plant you're not carving the middle
of the turn. Instead you are probably unweighting the ski and then
sliding it, or jumping it around.

[snip]

Don't get hung up on carving - short swing turns (I think that's what
they're called - I'm not great on terminology) are where it's at. As a
beginner you will find that carving on anything other than the gentlest of
slopes will quickly cause you to be travelling too fast and then what are
you going to do?


I think that is a point which many beginners and some instructors miss!
Carving is all about not losing speed, whereas most recreational skiers
want to scrub off some speed to avoid travelling too fast. Most
beginners and recreational skiers want to minimise the time spent
heading downhill and maximise the amount of time spent heading across
the hill. Carving is certainly not the way to achieve this.


P.S. IMHO the shortness of dry slopes is the main reason that people
spend too much time picking up bad habits from snow-ploughing rather
than learning something useful.


Don't knock the snow-plough and assume it is only for beginners. It's an
excellent technique for some difficult circumstances. When out
ski-mountaineering, carrying a heavy rucksack, and encountering
difficult snow conditions and terrain, you'd be surprised how often you
make use of the snow-plough. The fun of skiing is to master lots of
different techniques and then to also master when to use them
appropriately.


Mike URL:http://www.path.cam.ac.uk/~mrc7/
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
" || _`\,_ |__\ \ | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

In article , Paul
wrote:

I read every post in the thread so far and there are some good tips in
there but I didn't see anything relating to Teaching vs. learning. Let
me explain.... I never got taught to ski really, I had to learn
everything myself. My only teaching consisted of a friend explaining
how the snowplough worked.... after a bit of trial and error I got it.
Then I 'learned' how to ski by watching what others were doing and
then having a go myself until I finally got it.

I found that reading Roger Bays book "Ski Magic" taught me enough of the
theory to work out the principles.


I really progressed my skiing by watching warren miller type ski
films, I would watch them over and over and really watch and try to
work out what movements were required to ski. The slow motion really
shows you how to do a certain technique. What I would also do is
imagine myself skiing, over and over I would replay it in my head what
I needed to do (now you have to know what to do in the first place).
If I had a good turn or did a good set of moguls I would remember it
and think about it on the lift back up and then try to do it right
away.

I've also found this to be an excellent way to learn. Watching different
techniques demonstrated over and over again on video and then being able
to image them in your imagination. Then when out skiing get to associate
different sensory feelings with those images that you hold in your
mind. After a while the whole process starts to become second nature and
you just automatically respond appropriately to the feelings.



Niall, From what you have wrote in your post it sounds like you are
not looking towards the final result that you want (carved turn) and
then 'learning' from what you are currently doing wrong. Are you
trying to concentrate on position of your body and these little
excercises too much??? Have you actually watched a good skiier do some
carved turns??? and can you replay in your mind what those turns look
like in slow motion? Can you imagine yourself doing these turns?

Yes exactly, but what you've got to do is imagine the whole feeling of
those turns, not just concentrate on a static image. For example skiing
a carve is not about bending the body into a C shape first. The adoption
of that C shape comes about as a consequence of a need for natural
resistance to the centripetal forces generated from a fast turn.


Have you ever watched a downhill skiier preparing for the race? you
will see them with their eyes closed and they use their hands to
simulate the ski positions as they are playing the turns of the course
in their mind.


Yep.


Does anybody else use this type of learning?

Yep

or have I completly lost it??????

No


Paul PS - Disclaimer: I am not a ski instructor and I may be mad....
this might be a load of gibberish, it worked for me though!


It works for others as well.

Mike URL:http://www.path.cam.ac.uk/~mrc7/
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
" || _`\,_ |__\ \ | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

In article , NIALLBRUCE
wrote:
Thanks to everyone for their input!!
[snip]
I can't imagine the physics of carving perfectly in my mind however so
it gets rather confusing.

See if you can get hold of a copy of Roger Bays "Ski Magic". Snow and
Rock used to stock it.

I've taken the advice given and watched all the carving videos that I
could find online (not many to be honest!).

It might be worth buying some educational DVDs or videos as well.

In addition, I downloaded a photo of Bode Miller during a race - it's
now my background.

I really enjoy watching Bode Miller ski, but a word of warning, he uses
some very unconventional techniques that seem to work for him, but which
may not be easy to copy. Apparently as well as skiing from age 4 he is
also a champion log roller, unicyclist and tightrope walker. This means
he is able to transfer weight from leg to leg and maintain balance under
extreme circumstances where most people would simply fall over.


The majority seem to suggest that I should try to get the skis into
position ...and the rest (body) will follow.

I agree. If you get the skis right and you're moving, you'll find tat
there are only a limited number of ways you can adjust your body and not
fall over!

I also think that the dry-slope isn't helping.

I've never tried a dry slope but during several years of ski-touring
I've encountered most types of snow condition.


Mike
URL:http://www.path.cam.ac.uk/~mrc7/
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
" || _`\,_ |__\ \ | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"