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Snow tires?



 
 
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  #11  
Old November 28th 10, 02:58 AM posted to rec.skiing.alpine
VtSkier
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Posts: 1,233
Default Snow tires?

On 11/27/2010 09:21 PM, pigo wrote:
On Nov 27, 7:05 pm, wrote:

Braking.
There isn't a tire in the world that will improve your
braking on ice except a studded tire. This includes
Blizzaks so don't ever expect your vehicle the be able
to stop well on an icy surface. Go slow downhill and
only as fast as you need to to maintain traction going
uphill. If the center of the road is icy, have at least
2 wheels in the softer snow/slush/granular junk on the
right hand side of the road, especially going down.


I prefer aggressive mud and snow as I said before. But I have a GMC
crew cab. Heavy and long wheel base. I don't change tires ever. So I
need to make long highway drives in summer on them. But like I said
there are M+S that won't sing on the highway. I use them for mud in
warm weather too.

A neat trick that some might not know about.

You know how when you try to stop on ice especially when creeping
downhill, the rear of the vehicle slips to the side? Usually not a big
deal but it can be. It you put it in N it will stop straight. Anyone
know why? I don't.


With your truck (is it 4WD?)
If you apply the brakes with the clutch (or auto tranny) engaged,
you have engine braking, or sometimes engine pushing, as well
as the hydraulic brakes. With the vehicle in neutral (or the
clutch disengaged) you have only the brakes working and they
are pretty well balanced to give equal braking to all wheels.

BTW, this works even better for FWD cars.

Another trick I used to use in a FWD car was to use the
hand brake to slow the vehicle in slippery going. This
may or may not have anything to do with weight or what
wheels have braking applied, I think the handbrake being
less effective than hydraulic brakes that there was less
chance of wheel lockup.

Anti-lock braking is a good thing.

Traction control is not in slippery conditons.
(and it's not meant for slippery conditions)
Turn it off when driving a slippery road.
Traction control applies braking to a spinning
wheel. It will do this as often as a wheel starts
to spin. This will slow you to the point of
not having traction and will cause you to have
to back down.
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  #12  
Old November 28th 10, 04:47 AM posted to rec.skiing.alpine
Walt
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Posts: 624
Default Snow tires?

On 11/27/2010 9:05 PM, VtSkier wrote:
On 11/27/2010 05:56 PM, Walt wrote:



Whatever you do, don't let anyone talk you into "all season" tires that
are "almost as good as snowtires". Get dedicated snows.


While I believe this is true, and it's more true for
a "regular" car (2 wheel drive) than for either an
"all wheel drive (full time 4 wheel drive)" or selectable
4 wheel drive.


I've driven 4WD vehicles with all season tires and FWD vehicles with
real snow tires and I'll take FWD with real snow tires in a heartbeat.
It's not even close for most winter driving situations.


Look at the tread of a snow tire, or more properly an
"mud and snow" tire (read the sidewall). These big
grippers are made to dig into a loose material and
gain traction.


The tread pattern is only a part of the picture. The main improvement
of real snowtires like the Blizzak and the Hakkepallita is the material
science behind the rubber compounds. The material just flat out grips
better than normal tire rubber. The tradeoff of course is that the
compound wears out faster, especially at higher temps.

It's just like with skis - the breakthrough is not so much the sidecut
as the torsional rigidity and vibrational damping made possible by
advances in materials.

The only way these are going to perform
on ice is to have studs.


Um.... recent tests have shown the new formulations grip *better* than
studs. Studs tend to tear right through the ice so their grippiness is
limited by the strength of the ice. At near freezing temps, the ice has
little structural integrity, so the studs just rip right through it.
Grippy rubber formulations spread the load over a larger surface area
and hold better than the point-load of a stud.


Braking.
There isn't a tire in the world that will improve your
braking on ice except a studded tire.



Not true. See above. Studs are an old technology that worked pretty
well but has now been superseded.

Really, the bottom line for driving on slippery surfaces is that a
higher coeffficient of friction will do much more for you than doubling
the number of driving wheels (while keeping the number of braking wheels
the same). I've never understood how anyone could be so penny-wise as
to spend $35K on a 4WD SUV and not pony up another $500 for real snow
tires.

//Walt





  #13  
Old November 28th 10, 05:03 AM posted to rec.skiing.alpine
Walt
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Posts: 624
Default Snow tires?

On 11/27/2010 9:58 PM, VtSkier wrote:

Another trick I used to use in a FWD car was to use the
hand brake to slow the vehicle in slippery going. This
may or may not have anything to do with weight or what
wheels have braking applied, I think the handbrake being
less effective than hydraulic brakes that there was less
chance of wheel lockup.


On many vehicles the hand brake only stops the rear wheels. That may
explain why the car tends to stop straight when the hand brake is
applied. But be aware that this may not be true if the road is not level.

Anti-lock braking is a good thing.


Yes it is. And every time it engages, it means you have crossed into
the yellow zone. Try to drive so that it never engages, but be glad
that it's there to provide a margin of error. If you're constantly
relying on anti-lock brakes, you're engaging in risk homeostasis and
won't come out ahead.



Traction control is not in slippery conditons.
(and it's not meant for slippery conditions)
Turn it off when driving a slippery road.
Traction control applies braking to a spinning
wheel. It will do this as often as a wheel starts
to spin. This will slow you to the point of
not having traction and will cause you to have
to back down.



That's not quite my understanding of traction control. It's
implementation differs from manufacturer to manufacturer, so it may be
hard to generalize. Suffice it to say that if you're stuck sometimes
disengaging the traction control allows you to become unstuck. I would
not advocate disabling it in "slippery conditions" - just the opposite.
If you're moving ok, leave it on. But if you're having trouble getting
going (or keeping going if you're going uphill), try turning it off.


//Walt


  #14  
Old November 28th 10, 05:29 AM posted to rec.skiing.alpine
Bob F
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Posts: 1,296
Default Snow tires?

VtSkier wrote:

uphill. If the center of the road is icy, have at least
2 wheels in the softer snow/slush/granular junk on the
right hand side of the road, especially going down.


I did that once to save wear on the chains once when the wheel track area of the
road was bare. Some idiot had gone off the road earlier. He was gone, but his
tracks took me right into the ditch.



  #15  
Old November 28th 10, 05:36 AM posted to rec.skiing.alpine
Bob F
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Posts: 1,296
Default Snow tires?

VtSkier wrote:
Anti-lock braking is a good thing.


It scares the S..t out of me after a friends 4runner I was driving decided I was
in a skid and needed help on a wide slushy right bend. As I went fine around the
turn, the brakes on the left side suddenly applied hard, causing the car to veer
left into the opposing lane. Who the hell wrote the software for that system?


  #16  
Old November 28th 10, 08:46 AM posted to rec.skiing.alpine
BrritSki
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Posts: 575
Default Snow tires?

On 28/11/2010 06:03, Walt wrote:
On 11/27/2010 9:58 PM, VtSkier wrote:

Another trick I used to use in a FWD car was to use the
hand brake to slow the vehicle in slippery going....


Wow, what a great thread, very interesting.

I don't do much driving on snow, but have a Subaru Outback and when I do
meet poor conditions it's great. When I bought it (used) it had new
all-season tyres on and I was surprised how well they lasted.

Finally, I've had ABS on all my cars for at least 20 years and have only
engaged it a handful of times, so I guess I am doing something right


  #17  
Old November 28th 10, 09:31 AM posted to rec.skiing.alpine
Richard Henry
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Posts: 3,756
Default Snow tires?

On Nov 28, 12:46*am, BrritSki wrote:
On 28/11/2010 06:03, Walt wrote:

On 11/27/2010 9:58 PM, VtSkier wrote:


Another trick I used to use in a FWD car was to use the
hand brake to slow the vehicle in slippery going....


Wow, what a great thread, very interesting.

I don't do much driving on snow, but have a Subaru Outback and when I do
meet poor conditions it's great. When I bought it (used) it had new
all-season tyres on and I was surprised how well they lasted.

Finally, I've had ABS on all my cars for at least 20 years and have only
engaged it a handful of times, so I guess I am doing something right


I didn't know you could disengage ABS.
  #18  
Old November 28th 10, 10:03 AM posted to rec.skiing.alpine
BrritSki
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Posts: 575
Default Snow tires?

On 28/11/2010 10:31, Richard Henry wrote:
On Nov 28, 12:46 am, wrote:
On 28/11/2010 06:03, Walt wrote:

On 11/27/2010 9:58 PM, VtSkier wrote:


Another trick I used to use in a FWD car was to use the
hand brake to slow the vehicle in slippery going....


Wow, what a great thread, very interesting.

I don't do much driving on snow, but have a Subaru Outback and when I do
meet poor conditions it's great. When I bought it (used) it had new
all-season tyres on and I was surprised how well they lasted.

Finally, I've had ABS on all my cars for at least 20 years and have only
engaged it a handful of times, so I guess I am doing something right


I didn't know you could disengage ABS.


What I meant was inadvertently got into a situation where it kicked in.

Not counting the times when I first got each car and deliberately
triggered it so I knew what it felt like - if you don't, it can come as
a big surprise just at a time when you don't need more distractions !
  #19  
Old November 28th 10, 03:19 PM posted to rec.skiing.alpine
VtSkier
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Posts: 1,233
Default Snow tires?

On 11/28/2010 12:03 AM, Walt wrote:
On 11/27/2010 9:58 PM, VtSkier wrote:

Another trick I used to use in a FWD car was to use the
hand brake to slow the vehicle in slippery going. This
may or may not have anything to do with weight or what
wheels have braking applied, I think the handbrake being
less effective than hydraulic brakes that there was less
chance of wheel lockup.


On many vehicles the hand brake only stops the rear wheels. That may
explain why the car tends to stop straight when the hand brake is
applied. But be aware that this may not be true if the road is not level.

Anti-lock braking is a good thing.


Yes it is. And every time it engages, it means you have crossed into
the yellow zone. Try to drive so that it never engages, but be glad
that it's there to provide a margin of error. If you're constantly
relying on anti-lock brakes, you're engaging in risk homeostasis and
won't come out ahead.


agreed


Traction control is not in slippery conditons.
(and it's not meant for slippery conditions)
Turn it off when driving a slippery road.
Traction control applies braking to a spinning
wheel. It will do this as often as a wheel starts
to spin. This will slow you to the point of
not having traction and will cause you to have
to back down.



That's not quite my understanding of traction control. It's
implementation differs from manufacturer to manufacturer, so it may be
hard to generalize. Suffice it to say that if you're stuck sometimes
disengaging the traction control allows you to become unstuck. I would
not advocate disabling it in "slippery conditions" - just the opposite.
If you're moving ok, leave it on. But if you're having trouble getting
going (or keeping going if you're going uphill), try turning it off.


OKAY! I'll be a little more specific.
Going uphill at reasonably slow speeds, say under 40mph, traction
control will work against you. That's why cars which have it also
have the ability to turn it off.



//Walt



  #20  
Old November 28th 10, 03:23 PM posted to rec.skiing.alpine
VtSkier
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Posts: 1,233
Default Snow tires?

On 11/28/2010 12:36 AM, Bob F wrote:
VtSkier wrote:
Anti-lock braking is a good thing.


It scares the S..t out of me after a friends 4runner I was driving decided I was
in a skid and needed help on a wide slushy right bend. As I went fine around the
turn, the brakes on the left side suddenly applied hard, causing the car to veer
left into the opposing lane. Who the hell wrote the software for that system?


uhm, if you didn't apply the brakes, this wasn't anti-lock braking,
it was traction control. ABS only comes into play when you apply
the brakes. Traction control is an automatic system that senses
when a wheel is spinning (rotating at a speed contrary to what it
needs to for the speed you are driving) and applies braking to
stop the spin.

Walt's comment to the contrary, it's not always a good thing.
 




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