Wedge vs. Stem; The Difference.

Mary Malmros wrote:
yunlong wrote:

Mary Malmros wrote:

yunlong wrote:


Norm wrote:

[snip]

Sure. If you did it that way. Have you ever actually skied Yun?


You mean flat-boarding? Yes.
http://www.taomartialarts.com/ski/ski_v_is_tcs1.avi

IIRC, I saw Jean-Claude Killy do something very much like that on a

TV

special, from Sun Valley I think it was, sometime in the way back

when.

Thanks for the compliment.

Um, it wasn't exactly a compliment.

Thanks for the candidness, I'd be very surprised if you do.


He managed to do it without looking like "Rivendell on skis",
though.


Because he had to carry poles?

He wasn't carrying poles, not that that had anything to do with it.
I'm
just saying that he managed to pull off a cheezy, easy-listening,
made-for-TV waltzing-around-on-skis exhibition without looking
totally
like an elf on valium.

So, you like rigid thing better?


IS


--
Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield, other days you're the bug.

yunlong wrote:
VtSkier wrote:

yunlong wrote:

VtSkier wrote:


yunlong wrote:


foot2foot wrote:

.....


Bragging? Until you can duplicate these moves,
http://www.taomartialarts.com/ski/ski_v_is_tcs1.avi
you don't qualify.


IS


Ooooh, got a real competition going on. The moves are truly

beautiful,

Thanks,



but what will they get you when the going gets steep and gnarly.


What do you think?

I'm thinking you might get hung up on that outside edge. Especially

if

it's a little icy, as it is here a lot.


"Hung up" on ice? interesting thought.

Clearly you are western skier and have little knowledge of ice as it
applies (or is applied) to ski slopes. Not that that's a bad thing. I'd
like to have considerably less knowledge of ice applied to ski slopes.



I can do all those moves (actually there are only a couple of moves

shown


here)


Yah, that's only a beginning.



and I don't even teach!

VtSkier

Do you by chance use to have a handle by "Richard Walsh"?


IS


Yeah,


Your posting shows your trait,
IS

I'm that transparent, eh?
VtSkier

"yunlong" wrote in message
oups.com...
Steve FZ1 wrote:
"VtSkier" wrote in message
...
yunlong wrote:
foot2foot wrote:
[snip]

Bragging? Until you can duplicate these moves,
http://www.taomartialarts.com/ski/ski_v_is_tcs1.avi


Foot! did you notice that his weight was on the OUTSIDE ski????

You should check the frame before the spray began,

before the spray began... hmmmm guess that means "not on edge"... so what
edge are you on when you're not on edge?

Given the appearance of spray, care to guess how fast the skier was
traveling before he broke?

not very fast


Lack of intelligent?

hehehe... that would be "intelligence," eh Einstein? I'll show you my
Physics degree if you show me yours.


Amusing,
IS

I agree... amusing that this clip supposedly shows some sort of amazing
ability.

- Steve

Steve FZ1 wrote:
"yunlong" wrote in message
oups.com...
Steve FZ1 wrote:
"VtSkier" wrote in message
...
yunlong wrote:
foot2foot wrote:
[snip]

Bragging? Until you can duplicate these moves,
http://www.taomartialarts.com/ski/ski_v_is_tcs1.avi


Foot! did you notice that his weight was on the OUTSIDE ski????

You should check the frame before the spray began,

before the spray began... hmmmm guess that means "not on edge"... so
what
edge are you on when you're not on edge?

You haven't got the drift eh? It is called "flat-boarding," what else
can you be on [a ski] when you're not on either edge?


Given the appearance of spray, care to guess how fast the skier was
traveling before he broke?

not very fast

Yup, the video is on slow motion.



Lack of intelligent?

hehehe... that would be "intelligence," eh Einstein? I'll show you
my
Physics degree if you show me yours.

Ok,

are you an other Physicist who cannot tell what uphill and downhill
are?



Amusing,
IS

I agree... amusing that this clip supposedly shows some sort of
amazing
ability.

If the uphill/downhill confused the hell out of you, you probably
cannot tell what amazing ability is.


IS

VtSkier wrote:
yunlong wrote:
VtSkier wrote:

yunlong wrote:

VtSkier wrote:


yunlong wrote:


foot2foot wrote:

.....


Bragging? Until you can duplicate these moves,
http://www.taomartialarts.com/ski/ski_v_is_tcs1.avi
you don't qualify.


IS


Ooooh, got a real competition going on. The moves are truly

beautiful,

Thanks,



but what will they get you when the going gets steep and gnarly.


What do you think?

I'm thinking you might get hung up on that outside edge. Especially

if

it's a little icy, as it is here a lot.


"Hung up" on ice? interesting thought.

Clearly you are western skier and have little knowledge of ice as it
applies (or is applied) to ski slopes. Not that that's a bad thing.
I'd
like to have considerably less knowledge of ice applied to ski
slopes.

Not sure I care about New England's "ice," that's why I left;
nevertheless, I have skied there for seven seasons.




I can do all those moves (actually there are only a couple of
moves

shown


here)


Yah, that's only a beginning.



and I don't even teach!

VtSkier

Do you by chance use to have a handle by "Richard Walsh"?


IS


Yeah,


Your posting shows your trait,
IS

I'm that transparent, eh?
Yup, we've been that block.


IS

VtSkier

That's the classic definition of the stem christy. Why give it a new
name?

It's not the same at all. With a wedge initiation, *both* ski tails
are extended out into a wedge. With a stem, one ski stays
where it is in the traverse. The other ski tail is extended out to
make the v-shape.


You are trying to compare it with the plain "stem turn" which is a different
turn.

HMmm, I'd appreciate more enlightenment on that one, but I don't
think so.


Too late. I'll tell you anyway. BTW, why did you go way back to the wedge
term? We are trying to progress beyond that.

Let's review the basic turns.

1) Wedge. Ski all day in the wedge. Traverse in the wedge. Lean onto the
uphill (outside) ski to initiate a turn but stay in the wedge thru the turn.

2) Stem. Same as wedge, but: Move the uphill ski down parallel to the lower
ski in the traverse. Then stem the uphill ski out into a wedge and shift
weight just like in the wedge turn. After the turn, bring the (new) uphill ski
back parallel to the lower ski (with weight on both skis).

3) Stem Christie. Traverse the hill with skis parallel. Stem the uphill
(outside) ski and shift weight onto it. As the turn is initiated, immediately
slide the inside ski out to the parallel position and shift some weight to the
new uphill ski as the carve is completed. Resume the parallel traverse.

4) Parallel Christie. This is where it gets tricky. You next have to be
taught "down unweighting" or up "unweighting" to initiate the turn and there
are many schools of thought on this.

What was described by th OP was the Stem Christie - not some new kind of "magic
turn". What I have described above is the way many ski schools taught skiing
for years and years. (I don't know what they teach today).

The problem with the sequence above is that a student learns to "stem" the ski
to initiate a turn and has difficulty getting rid of the stem as they progress
to parallel turns.

I believe the OP was trying to describe a progression from wedge to parallel
without actually stemming th ski - more about weight shift or something.
However, what was described was still the stem christie.

Cheers, TCS



TCS (The Colorado Skier)
Colorado is now open for skiing

"Thomas Raml" wrote in message
...

Hmm, I learnt that magic turn on my ski instructors lessons a good 20
years ago in Austria (called officially "The new Austrian way of
teaching ski" or so). Inofficially it was called "learning to ski
from plow _direct_ to parallell" _without_ the stem. And then it was
some years old.

There's a few new twists. For instance absolute insistence on
hand position, and the concept of home position. Then, wedge
changeups followed up the the schrittbogen schuss drill,
something which I've never seen done before until the last
few years.

Also, there's the bunny berm. An absolutely bombproof
learning progression for even the most terrified or clumsy. No
fear, no danger.

foot2foot describes correctly, what we learnt to teach pupils to get
to parallel in shortest time (Icould'nt describe it as clealy as he
can).

Thank you.

So, new?

Ha, had to learn schrittbogen myself, not that smooth as your "magic
turns"!

And I _know_ what a stemmbogen is! I had to learn it right trough:
Plow - Schrittbogen - Stemmbogen - parallel - wedeln.

In this order that was used, what was the purpose of the
schrittbogen step? Then, to move into Stemmbogen? It makes
no sense, it's like going backward.

And to think they could've just thrown stem out the window
and used the wedge itself to initiate, then gone right to
parallel via schrittbogen.

I'm often wondering about vorlage, rucklage, and some others.
Would these be French?

YMMV, but OMHO, steps from plow to stemmbogen are more difficult than
from mastered stemmbogen to parallel.

I'm not sure what you mean here....

Nobody is perfect
not even in failing

With the bunny berm, a new skier falling is made almost
obsolete.

Austria. Impressive credentials I'd say.

Thanks very much for the reply(s).

"TCS" wrote in message
...
Too late. I'll tell you anyway. BTW, why did you go way back to the
wedge
term? We are trying to progress beyond that.


Let's review the basic turns.

1) Wedge. Ski all day in the wedge. Traverse in the wedge. Lean onto
the
uphill (outside) ski to initiate a turn but stay in the wedge thru the
turn.

After a few wedge changeups, and some schussing down an easy
hill picking up the tail of each ski alternately, being sure to maintain
home position, hopefully into a berm that will provide a terrain
stop after each run. Once the student starts trying to turn, spend
about three minutes in the wedge and then toss aside it's necessity
for all time. Simply traverse, do a wedge changeup and pick up
the tail of the inside ski. Parallel turn.


2) Stem. Same as wedge, but: Move the uphill ski down parallel to the
lower
ski in the traverse. Then stem the uphill ski out into a wedge and shift
weight just like in the wedge turn. After the turn, bring the (new)
uphill ski
back parallel to the lower ski (with weight on both skis).

No need to waste time with this. I'm already making parallel turns
by initiating with a wedge changeup and picking up the tail of the
inside ski. Besides, I don't know what uphill ski is.

3) Stem Christie. Traverse the hill with skis parallel. Stem the
uphill
(outside) ski and shift weight onto it. As the turn is initiated,
immediately
slide the inside ski out to the parallel position and shift some weight to
the
new uphill ski as the carve is completed. Resume the parallel traverse.

Don't need to waste time with this. I'm already making parallel
turns. Probably on the blues or blacks by now.

4) Parallel Christie. This is where it gets tricky. You next have to be
taught "down unweighting" or up "unweighting" to initiate the turn and
there
are many schools of thought on this.

Don't need to up or down unweight. Just initiate with a
wedge changeup and pick up the tail of the inside ski.
No need for flexion and extention yet.

What was described by th OP was the Stem Christie - not some new kind of
"magic
turn". What I have described above is the way many ski schools taught
skiing
for years and years. (I don't know what they teach today).

If they're smart they teach magic turns. TCS, there's nothing
new about the actual techniques, it's the way they're put
together, and where the emphasis is put that make all
the difference. Parallel turns in two hours of instruction for
the first time ever student. .

The problem with the sequence above is that a student learns to "stem" the
ski
to initiate a turn and has difficulty getting rid of the stem as they
progress
to parallel turns.

True. That is very true.

I believe the OP was trying to describe a progression from wedge to
parallel
without actually stemming th ski - more about weight shift or something.
However, what was described was still the stem christie.

Then I didn't get the idea across very well. The Original Poster?
was me. Start with home position, then progress to wedge
changeups into a berm, then schuss into the berm picking up
the tail of each ski alternately, then put it all together and turn
it sideways.

Maintain body position, especially hand position, traverse,
make a wedge, as in a wedge changeup, to initiate the turn,
transfer the weight to the outside ski, pick up the tail of
the inside ski. It's *not* the same as the old school typical
progressions at all. Yes, all the moves are as old as skiing.
It's the synthesis of it. The way it's put together hasn't been
done before as far as I know.

The progressions you described take many days on the
snow to finally get to parallel turns. The magic turns system
puts half of any given beginner class in a parallel turn in
*two hours* consistently. Not a phony fall apart parallel
turn. One that the student can and does take to the blues.

Then, after the beginner stages, the system emphasizes
teaching to the mechanics of skiing, not particular forms.
The student is freed up to ski however they wish,
because they know how the skis work, and what they
can do with them.

bdubya wrote:
On 8 Dec 2004 11:01:09 -0800, "yunlong"
wrote:

lal_truckee wrote:
yunlong wrote:
Norm wrote:

Have you ever actually skied Yun?


You mean flat-boarding? Yes.
http://www.taomartialarts.com/ski/ski_v_is_tcs1.avi

I looked at your home movies - poor skiing, IMO.

Yup, those without substance cannot be impressed.

Yun, I'm sorry to say this, but all I see in your videos is the way I
_used_ to ski, as an intermediate who hadn't had lessons in a long,
long time.

You do?!!! "How do you do flat-spin again"?

All I see is weight too far back and controlling direction
by pushing the tails out,

Not sure you know how to read the video clip, it sounded like a comment
from "an intermediate who hadn't had lessons in a long, long time"
alright, or is that how you ski?

http://www.taomartialarts.com/ski/ski_p_is_tcs1.jpg
Care to speculate where the skier's weight is, and how does he turn?

which explains why you don't "need" poles -
in that stance, there's not much use for them.

When you cannot read/interpret the video clip properly, you cannot
explain it.

It's a pleasant way to
ski the groomers, but until I see video of you "flat-boarding" in the
bumps,

The quality of this clip is not that good, but it does show the
capability of the flat-boarding in the bumps,
http://www.taomartialarts.com/ski/upperdynamic.wmv
however, not sure how you will make of it.

or (even better) off-piste in the cut-up crud, I won't be
impressed either.

What so hot about off-piste? Been there, done that, and I don't think
off-piste skiing is any harder than black diamond bump trails in any
major ski resort. Anyway, I don't do much off-piste skiing nowadays
(too much work, and little result); now I am a park-rat,
http://www.taomartialarts.com/ski/highjump180.wmv
and a speed junkie; as for the video of how I "fly" the hill, we have
to wait until the photographer is ready.

I'd love to find that I'm wrong, and that you
really are onto something new and different here, but I need to see
it
to believe it.
Ok, though not sure if you know how to see.


IS


bw

yunlong wrote:

snip


The quality of this clip is not that good, but it does show the
capability of the flat-boarding in the bumps,
http://www.taomartialarts.com/ski/upperdynamic.wmv
however, not sure how you will make of it.



snip

There is so little left to say in this thread except, maybe...


wow.

Dave M.