Wedge vs. Stem; The Difference.

Jon C wrote:

I'm a relatively new skier, but I never did the wedge thing. Still not
sure how it works really.

.... and ...

there are very few runs in the east I won't bomb down,

.... and ...

IMHO, I'm a very good skier


Heh.... Do tell us where you'll be skiing, won't you?

-Jeremy

The Real Bev wrote in news:41B394FE.5C6120F1
@myrealbox.com:

foot2foot wrote:

"The Real Bev" wrote in message

What happens if you say "Follow me down the hill"? Can she turn to
follow you even if she doesn't know what she's doing?

With a magical thinker? Sometimes maybe a fair amount if the
time, yes. Without another word or demonstration, they just do
it. Some even in perfect steered parallel.

Why does it have to be "magical"? When you realize that thing1 works
and thing2 doesn't, you tend to do thing1 without even thinking about
it. It's what we call "learning", and it explains why we generally
don't see teenagers crawling around on their hands and knees.


This is a direct contradiction to what I read on that "boarders" thread....

dh

foot2foot wrote:
"yunlong" wrote in message


"Downhill" and "uphill" are used to reference the skis position in
relation to the slope, and "inside" and "outside" are used to
reference the ski position in relation to the turning,

Yes but a skier is always turning.

Not necessarily, try flat-boarding.

Unless they're traversing,
or standing, in which case there would be an uphill and
downhill ski.

Most beginners/intermediates traverse on a steep slope. With skis point
to the side, they only concern/know with "uphill" and "downhill."

Once the turning starts, uphill and downhill
don't exist anymore,

They not just still exist, but actually remain a big part of skiing.
Going uphill to slowdown and going downhill to speed up is something a
skier must learn.

just inside and outside ski.

And just talk about inside and outside ski won't show such properties
of skiing.


most the time
they are referring the same ski, but there are circumstances that
they
are different (e.g. turning downward on the upper part of a vert,
or
the like).

Most beginners only know "uphill" and "downhill" as they haven't
figured out what is inside or outside of a turn as they don't know
what a turn is.

And they'll stay beginners unless someone gets them to
realize what inside and outside ski are right from the start.

I went through the beginner, intermediate, and advanced skiing state
without referencing "inside and outside ski." I would imagine that
there were many advanced skiers did the same.

This "uphill downhill ski" stuff is part of what has kept
beginners on the bunny hill for years. 1930's ski material
I have refers to inside/outside ski.

In 1930's, the skis are long and the trails are flat, with the skis
point straight down, it may make sense to use "inside/outside" terms.

Some genius came up
with this uphill downhill junk in the fifties or sixties. Then
everybody apparently jumped on it and wouldn't let go.

Time changed, equipment changed, so were the techniques and
terminologies.


Here's a way to explain inside/outside ski to a seven year old.

You actually explain this to a seven year old?


Or older.

Draw a circle on the snow and ask the kid to identify the inside
and outside of the circle. A monkey could do that. Well, just
about. Then walk around in a circle, and ask the kid to identify
your outside foot. The kid will. Trust me. Then walk around the
other way, ask the kid to ID the outside foot. They will. Then
walk down the hill in S turn pattern, and ask the kid to ID your
outside foot with each change of direction. Then tell the kid
that all the weight goes on the outside ski.

Then the kid will go.."OOOOOHHHHHH" I get it"

The kid may know what the inside or outside of the circle is, but can
he learn how to ski with it?


This works as well with adults as kids, but it won't work all
that well for magical thinkers (kids under 6). Even if they can
ID the feet as inside and outside, the whole concept is usually
too much for them.

Kids under 6 usually don't have concept that they need to turn to slow
down, so they go straight down.


If you want to explain something to a magical thinker, you could
say to push on the opposite foot from which way they want to
turn. Even that is too much for many though.

They won't even know/understand that; when they want to turn, they just
go that direction by pressing the foot on that side, natural
flat-boarding.

.
The "edge" thing has always been confused as well. "inside
edges" meant both big toe edges to some, to others it was the
inside edges in a turn, or the outside ski big toe edge, and
inside ski pinky edge. Some would call the latter "parallel
edges". Including me.

Both "inside/outside edge" and "big toe/little toe edge" are
referencing in relation to body direction/anatony [within]; how do you
relate these to terrain without?


That's why the ski informational world has mostly moved to
Big toe, pinky toe edges, and inside outside ski.

Why the new names? To create new names to show they know better?


If turning is in the picture at all, there is no longer such a thing
as uphill/downhill ski, because this is always changing. It's the
outside and inside ski all the way through the turn, until a new
turn has fully begun.

Remember to turn uphill to slow down, and turn downhill to speed up.
How do you turn uphill and downhill again?


If you want to talk about transition from turn to turn, then "new"
inside or outside ski is usually the terminology used. For examle,
"shift your weight to the new outside ski early, before the new
turn has even started".

Most beginners wouldn't know that the inside ski would become the new
outside ski, but they would know uphill and downhill.



That would work, as long as they identify the proper edge and their
functions.


IS

Thanks for the replies Yun.

You welcome,
IS

foot2foot wrote:
"yunlong" wrote in message


"Downhill" and "uphill" are used to reference the skis position in
relation to the slope, and "inside" and "outside" are used to
reference the ski position in relation to the turning,

Yes but a skier is always turning.

Not necessarily, try flat-boarding.

Unless they're traversing,
or standing, in which case there would be an uphill and
downhill ski.

Most beginners/intermediates traverse on a steep slope. With skis point
to the side, they only concern/know with "uphill" and "downhill."

Once the turning starts, uphill and downhill
don't exist anymore,

They not just still exist, but actually remain a big part of skiing.
Going uphill to slowdown and going downhill to speed up is something a
skier must learn.

just inside and outside ski.

And just talk about inside and outside ski won't show such properties
of skiing.


most the time
they are referring the same ski, but there are circumstances that
they
are different (e.g. turning downward on the upper part of a vert,
or
the like).

Most beginners only know "uphill" and "downhill" as they haven't
figured out what is inside or outside of a turn as they don't know
what a turn is.

And they'll stay beginners unless someone gets them to
realize what inside and outside ski are right from the start.

I went through the beginner, intermediate, and advanced skiing state
without referencing "inside and outside ski." I would imagine that
there were many advanced skiers did the same.

This "uphill downhill ski" stuff is part of what has kept
beginners on the bunny hill for years. 1930's ski material
I have refers to inside/outside ski.

In 1930's, the skis are long and the trails are flat, with the skis
point straight down, it may make sense to use "inside/outside" terms.

Some genius came up
with this uphill downhill junk in the fifties or sixties. Then
everybody apparently jumped on it and wouldn't let go.

Time changed, equipment changed, so were the techniques and
terminologies.


Here's a way to explain inside/outside ski to a seven year old.

You actually explain this to a seven year old?


Or older.

Draw a circle on the snow and ask the kid to identify the inside
and outside of the circle. A monkey could do that. Well, just
about. Then walk around in a circle, and ask the kid to identify
your outside foot. The kid will. Trust me. Then walk around the
other way, ask the kid to ID the outside foot. They will. Then
walk down the hill in S turn pattern, and ask the kid to ID your
outside foot with each change of direction. Then tell the kid
that all the weight goes on the outside ski.

Then the kid will go.."OOOOOHHHHHH" I get it"

The kid may know what the inside or outside of the circle is, but can
he learn how to ski with it?


This works as well with adults as kids, but it won't work all
that well for magical thinkers (kids under 6). Even if they can
ID the feet as inside and outside, the whole concept is usually
too much for them.

Kids under 6 usually don't have concept that they need to turn to slow
down, so they go straight down.


If you want to explain something to a magical thinker, you could
say to push on the opposite foot from which way they want to
turn. Even that is too much for many though.

They won't even know/understand that; when they want to turn, they just
go that direction by pressing the foot on that side, natural
flat-boarding.

.
The "edge" thing has always been confused as well. "inside
edges" meant both big toe edges to some, to others it was the
inside edges in a turn, or the outside ski big toe edge, and
inside ski pinky edge. Some would call the latter "parallel
edges". Including me.

Both "inside/outside edge" and "big toe/little toe edge" are
referencing in relation to body direction/anatony [within]; how do you
relate these to terrain without?


That's why the ski informational world has mostly moved to
Big toe, pinky toe edges, and inside outside ski.

Why the new names? To create new names to show they know better?


If turning is in the picture at all, there is no longer such a thing
as uphill/downhill ski, because this is always changing. It's the
outside and inside ski all the way through the turn, until a new
turn has fully begun.

Remember to turn uphill to slow down, and turn downhill to speed up.
How do you turn uphill and downhill again?


If you want to talk about transition from turn to turn, then "new"
inside or outside ski is usually the terminology used. For examle,
"shift your weight to the new outside ski early, before the new
turn has even started".

Most beginners wouldn't know that the inside ski would become the new
outside ski, but they would know uphill and downhill.



That would work, as long as they identify the proper edge and their
functions.


IS

Thanks for the replies Yun.

You welcome,
IS

"yunlong" wrote in message

foot2foot wrote:

"yunlong" wrote in message

I went through the beginner, intermediate, and advanced skiing state
without referencing "inside and outside ski." I would imagine that
there were many advanced skiers did the same.

Sute, a lot of people endured the torture of uphull/donwhill
ski terminology. None of them learned parallel in two hours.
Today, 80 plus percent of the new skiers quit. It's time for
things to change, and they have. "Uphill/downhill ski" has
become a relic of the past, hopefully forever.

You actually explain this to a seven year old?

All the time. They eat it up like candy.

The kid may know what the inside or outside of the circle is, but can
he learn how to ski with it?

Easily. Happens all the time, many times a day on the learning
slope.

Kids under 6 usually don't have concept that they need to turn to slow
down, so they go straight down.

Lots of kids only want to go straight down as fast as they
can. Sooner or later, one way or another they learn that
they must turn, or crash painfully. Ya just can't tell some
kids nothin.


They won't even know/understand that; when they want to turn, they just
go that direction by pressing the foot on that side, natural
flat-boarding.

You have to push on the opposite ski.


Both "inside/outside edge" and "big toe/little toe edge" are
referencing in relation to body direction/anatony [within]; how do you
relate these to terrain without?

It doesn't matter. There's no need to do this. You just need to
communicate the actions in reference to the turn and it's
direction.

Why the new names? To create new names to show they know better?

The other terms were mostly meaningless and confusing.
Nobody really knew what anyone else was talking about.

Remember to turn uphill to slow down, and turn downhill to speed up.
How do you turn uphill and downhill again?

Most beginners wouldn't know that the inside ski would become the new
outside ski, but they would know uphill and downhill.

You get them to understand this by walking down the hill in
s turn fashion, and ask them to ID the outside foot with
each change of direction. Some struggle with it a bit longer
than others, but it's an extremely simple concept.

First the downhill ski is the uphill ski. Then in the middle of
the turn neither is uphill or downhill. But what was the
downhill ski which was actuaully the uphill ski is supposedly
still the downhill ski. At the end of the turn the downhill ski is
actually the downhill ski, but it's going to be the new downhill
ski which is actually the uphill ski. I'm not sure *anyone* ever
really understood any of this.

I can still remember my friend slamming his ski pole into the
snow and yelling at me,

"YOU DON"T (slam) HAVE YOUR WEIGHT (slam) ON
THE DOWNHILL (slam) SKI!!!!" He must have had some
drill sergeant coach or something.

I can still recall going...."huh?".

The outside ski is the outside ski all the way around the turn.
Same with the inside ski. Simple. It has to be kept simple.


That would work, as long as they identify the proper edge and their
functions.

Thanks for the further replies, Yun.

foot2foot wrote:
"yunlong" wrote in message

foot2foot wrote:

"yunlong" wrote in message

I went through the beginner, intermediate, and advanced skiing
state
without referencing "inside and outside ski." I would imagine that
there were many advanced skiers did the same.

Sute, a lot of people endured the torture of uphull/donwhill
ski terminology.

Likewise, I encountered more people confused on "inside/outside"
terminology than people used "uphill/downhill." In fact, that's why I
use both terms. As well, I also use "big toe side" and "little toe
side," and I use "little toe side" so to avoid the confuse which/what
is "pinky."

None of them learned parallel in two hours.

Bragging? I can do better than that. Nevertheless, parallel turn/skiing
is a high level maneuver/technique, as it is very efficient, so it is
very fast, rushing into it before one is ready only courting the
disasters.

Today, 80 plus percent of the new skiers quit. It's time for
things to change, and they have. "Uphill/downhill ski" has
become a relic of the past, hopefully forever.

Probably it (the quitting) has nothing to do with "Uphill/downhill ski"
terminology.


You actually explain this to a seven year old?

All the time. They eat it up like candy.

Probably they just eat the candy...


The kid may know what the inside or outside of the circle is, but
can
he learn how to ski with it?

Easily. Happens all the time, many times a day on the learning
slope.

Really? Did you tell them to use "inside/outside ski" or "left/right
ski/foot"?


Kids under 6 usually don't have concept that they need to turn to
slow
down, so they go straight down.

Lots of kids only want to go straight down as fast as they
can. Sooner or later, one way or another they learn that
they must turn, or crash painfully. Ya just can't tell some
kids nothin.

You probably talk about something beyond their capability. With their
pelvis undeveloped and both feet point outward like a duck, they cannot
do a wedge to slow down, and the best they can do is to keep the skis
parallel forward [downhill] (otherwise they would fall face-planted
already), yah, that's flat-boarding, and that's why they are so fast.



They won't even know/understand that; when they want to turn, they
just
go that direction by pressing the foot on that side, natural
flat-boarding.

You have to push on the opposite ski.

No, it is turning on the inside ski; that is, press the right ski for
right turn and press the left ski for left turn.



Both "inside/outside edge" and "big toe/little toe edge" are
referencing in relation to body direction/anatony [within]; how do
you
relate these to terrain without?

It doesn't matter. There's no need to do this. You just need to
communicate the actions in reference to the turn and it's
direction.

So you've never been on a vert, or done a "wing over" against a steep
hill?


Why the new names? To create new names to show they know better?

The other terms were mostly meaningless and confusing.
Nobody really knew what anyone else was talking about.

Really? Or just that, too narrow a focus?


Remember to turn uphill to slow down, and turn downhill to speed
up.
How do you turn uphill and downhill again?

Most beginners wouldn't know that the inside ski would become the
new
outside ski, but they would know uphill and downhill.

You get them to understand this by walking down the hill in
s turn fashion, and ask them to ID the outside foot with
each change of direction. Some struggle with it a bit longer
than others, but it's an extremely simple concept.

Now you have to teach them how to "walk" down the hill, and that may be
a lesson by itself. Which/what is outside foot again?


First the downhill ski is the uphill ski. Then in the middle of
the turn neither is uphill or downhill. But what was the
downhill ski which was actuaully the uphill ski is supposedly
still the downhill ski. At the end of the turn the downhill ski is
actually the downhill ski, but it's going to be the new downhill
ski which is actually the uphill ski. I'm not sure *anyone* ever
really understood any of this.

I can still remember my friend slamming his ski pole into the
snow and yelling at me,

"YOU DON"T (slam) HAVE YOUR WEIGHT (slam) ON
THE DOWNHILL (slam) SKI!!!!" He must have had some
drill sergeant coach or something.

I can still recall going...."huh?".

The outside ski is the outside ski all the way around the turn.
Same with the inside ski. Simple. It has to be kept simple.

After they "walk" down the hill (I really doubt that any person have an
idea to learn downhill skiing would take that kind of lesson), they may
know (or think they know) what a S-turn supposed to be or which/what is
"outside" foot, but do you think that they still know/remember all
those when they get to slide on the skis?



That would work, as long as they identify the proper edge and
their
functions.

Thanks for the further replies, Yun.

Sure thing,
IS

"yunlong" wrote in message
oups.com...
Likewise, I encountered more people confused on "inside/outside"
terminology than people used "uphill/downhill."

You've encountered people who were raised on that crap.
You have to be rutheless here. Just tell 'em, no more uphill
downhill. Chances are all those people are talking about
different things anyway. Like I said, no one ever really
meant the same thing. You had to interpret it each time.


In fact, that's why I
use both terms.

Nah, don't bother. It's really not done anymore for good
reason, if someone's still doing it, clue them into the
wonder of inside/outside ski.

As well, I also use "big toe side" and "little toe
side," and I use "little toe side" so to avoid the confuse which/what
is "pinky."

True, "little toe edge" is probably better as you describe,
unless someone knows what pinky is. Or, you could say
"pinky toe edge" which also probably gets the idea across.

None of them learned parallel in two hours.

You actually explain this to a seven year old?

All the time. They eat it up like candy.

Really? Did you tell them to use "inside/outside ski" or "left/right
ski/foot"?

I described it earlier. Walk in a circle and have them ID the
inside and outside feet. Left or right is not relevant it would
only confuse.


No, it is turning on the inside ski; that is, press the right ski for
right turn and press the left ski for left turn.

The outside ski is the outside ski all the way around the turn.
Same with the inside ski. Simple. It has to be kept simple.

My kids were taught to do either "pizzas" or "french fries", and they picked
up the rest naturally faster than grown ups.

--

remove 'nospam' for correct email address
"foot2foot" wrote in message
...

"yunlong" wrote in message
oups.com...
Likewise, I encountered more people confused on "inside/outside"
terminology than people used "uphill/downhill."

You've encountered people who were raised on that crap.
You have to be rutheless here. Just tell 'em, no more uphill
downhill. Chances are all those people are talking about
different things anyway. Like I said, no one ever really
meant the same thing. You had to interpret it each time.


In fact, that's why I
use both terms.

Nah, don't bother. It's really not done anymore for good
reason, if someone's still doing it, clue them into the
wonder of inside/outside ski.

As well, I also use "big toe side" and "little toe
side," and I use "little toe side" so to avoid the confuse which/what
is "pinky."

True, "little toe edge" is probably better as you describe,
unless someone knows what pinky is. Or, you could say
"pinky toe edge" which also probably gets the idea across.

None of them learned parallel in two hours.

You actually explain this to a seven year old?

All the time. They eat it up like candy.

Really? Did you tell them to use "inside/outside ski" or "left/right
ski/foot"?

I described it earlier. Walk in a circle and have them ID the
inside and outside feet. Left or right is not relevant it would
only confuse.


No, it is turning on the inside ski; that is, press the right ski for
right turn and press the left ski for left turn.

The outside ski is the outside ski all the way around the turn.
Same with the inside ski. Simple. It has to be kept simple.

No, it is turning on the inside ski; that is, press the right ski for
right turn and press the left ski for left turn.

You press on the right ski to turn right and the left ski to turn left? hmmm

BssnRX wrote:

No, it is turning on the inside ski; that is, press the right ski for
right turn and press the left ski for left turn.


You press on the right ski to turn right and the left ski to turn left? hmmm

God, don't you love terminology confusions? Then everybody can be right
and "know" that everybody else is wrong ;-)

In the normal world, a "right turn" means turning to the right and a
"left turn" means turning to the left. I would expect the same terms to
mean the same things in skiing (although you don't typically hear people
saying, "make a right turn"), but there may be a confusion with the
terms "right-footer" and "left-footer". A "right-footer" is actually a
left-hand turn, and vice versa.

--
Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield, other days you're the bug.