skiing a bowl

Hi,

I am an advanced skier, not expert. I tried to ski a bowl at Copper, Union
Jack, it's a single/double diamond, and I got onto a steep portion of wind
blown crust. I broke through the crust with about 3 feet of soft shown under
it - my skis stopped and I didn't, and you can guess what happened - I went
downhill a ways and had to fight my way through that deep snow to go back
and get my skis.

What is the proper way to ski a steep with crust like that?

Thanks,

--Randy Starkey

Randy Starkey wrote:
Hi,

I am an advanced skier, not expert. I tried to ski a bowl at Copper, Union
Jack, it's a single/double diamond, and I got onto a steep portion of wind
blown crust. I broke through the crust with about 3 feet of soft shown under
it - my skis stopped and I didn't, and you can guess what happened - I went
downhill a ways and had to fight my way through that deep snow to go back
and get my skis.

What is the proper way to ski a steep with crust like that?

don't. In other words, know your conditions. My home mountain
has many green trails down from the top. By 3:00PM they are
no longer "green" and we have lots of calls for transports
from skiers that should have been able to ski the "green" but
because of conditions, could not.

By the way, crust is not wind-blown. It is snow that has
been rained on or melted at the top layer only and refrozen.

Windblown is FIRM loose snow which is lots easier to ski
than the breakable crust you got into. How badly cut
up were your shins after your experience?

Thanks,

--Randy Starkey

VtSkier wrote:
Randy Starkey wrote:
Hi,

I am an advanced skier, not expert. I tried to ski a bowl at Copper,
Union
Jack, it's a single/double diamond, and I got onto a steep portion of
wind
blown crust. I broke through the crust with about 3 feet of soft shown
under
it - my skis stopped and I didn't, and you can guess what happened - I
went
downhill a ways and had to fight my way through that deep snow to go back
and get my skis.

What is the proper way to ski a steep with crust like that?

First, may I point out that there are no bowls at Copper. Or Vail. Their
publicity departments have decided to apply a well defined term "Bowl"
AKA "Cirque" AKA a glacier scooped steep-walled hollow shaped like a
cereal bowl to their common drainages because they believe it will
attract Eastern skiers - apparently it works?

don't. In other words, know your conditions. My home mountain
has many green trails down from the top. By 3:00PM they are
no longer "green" and we have lots of calls for transports
from skiers that should have been able to ski the "green" but
because of conditions, could not.

Well, if he does get into nasty crust with no bailout available, a few
possible techniques suggest:
On relatively strong surface crust sometimes a very light touch keeping
the full running surface of both skis in contact with the crust layer
allows the skier to stay on top of the surface.
Sometimes the old (1950s era) Austrian heel-thrust technique works in
crust - just ignore the crust and power the turns pushing hard on the
tails of the skis.
When all else fails, leap and land - leap completely out of the crust
and land turned, hard enough to crush through the crust; repeat - make
ugly z-turns all the way down.


By the way, crust is not wind-blown. It is snow that has
been rained on or melted at the top layer only and refrozen.

I've encountered wind-blown firm surface over softer snow - not often,
but occasionally. But you're correct - usually windblown is a wonderful
surface - easy skiing.

Windblown is FIRM loose snow which is lots easier to ski
than the breakable crust you got into. How badly cut
up were your shins after your experience?

Thanks,

--Randy Starkey

"lal_truckee" wrote in message
t...
VtSkier wrote:
Randy Starkey wrote:
Hi,

I am an advanced skier, not expert. I tried to ski a bowl at Copper,
Union
Jack, it's a single/double diamond, and I got onto a steep portion of
wind
blown crust. I broke through the crust with about 3 feet of soft shown
under
it - my skis stopped and I didn't, and you can guess what happened - I
went
downhill a ways and had to fight my way through that deep snow to go
back
and get my skis.

What is the proper way to ski a steep with crust like that?

First, may I point out that there are no bowls at Copper. Or Vail. Their
publicity departments have decided to apply a well defined term "Bowl" AKA
"Cirque" AKA a glacier scooped steep-walled hollow shaped like a cereal
bowl to their common drainages because they believe it will attract
Eastern skiers - apparently it works?

don't. In other words, know your conditions. My home mountain
has many green trails down from the top. By 3:00PM they are
no longer "green" and we have lots of calls for transports
from skiers that should have been able to ski the "green" but
because of conditions, could not.

Well, if he does get into nasty crust with no bailout available, a few
possible techniques suggest:
On relatively strong surface crust sometimes a very light touch keeping
the full running surface of both skis in contact with the crust layer
allows the skier to stay on top of the surface.
Sometimes the old (1950s era) Austrian heel-thrust technique works in
crust - just ignore the crust and power the turns pushing hard on the
tails of the skis.
When all else fails, leap and land - leap completely out of the crust and
land turned, hard enough to crush through the crust; repeat - make ugly
z-turns all the way down.


By the way, crust is not wind-blown. It is snow that has
been rained on or melted at the top layer only and refrozen.

I've encountered wind-blown firm surface over softer snow - not often, but
occasionally. But you're correct - usually windblown is a wonderful
surface - easy skiing.

Windblown is FIRM loose snow which is lots easier to ski
than the breakable crust you got into. How badly cut
up were your shins after your experience?

Thanks,

--Randy Starkey


Thanks for the input. It didn't mess up my shins, so the crust wasn't that
tough, but you're right, it was probably more than windblown. Melted is my
guess as there had been several days of nice sun. I just wasn't successful
in turning in it. I should have taken my clue when there were no tracks over
there...

Randy Starkey wrote:
"lal_truckee" wrote in message
t...
VtSkier wrote:
Randy Starkey wrote:
Hi,

I am an advanced skier, not expert. I tried to ski a bowl at Copper,
Union
Jack, it's a single/double diamond, and I got onto a steep portion of
wind
blown crust. I broke through the crust with about 3 feet of soft shown
under
it - my skis stopped and I didn't, and you can guess what happened - I
went
downhill a ways and had to fight my way through that deep snow to go
back
and get my skis.

What is the proper way to ski a steep with crust like that?
First, may I point out that there are no bowls at Copper. Or Vail. Their
publicity departments have decided to apply a well defined term "Bowl" AKA
"Cirque" AKA a glacier scooped steep-walled hollow shaped like a cereal
bowl to their common drainages because they believe it will attract
Eastern skiers - apparently it works?
don't. In other words, know your conditions. My home mountain
has many green trails down from the top. By 3:00PM they are
no longer "green" and we have lots of calls for transports
from skiers that should have been able to ski the "green" but
because of conditions, could not.
Well, if he does get into nasty crust with no bailout available, a few
possible techniques suggest:
On relatively strong surface crust sometimes a very light touch keeping
the full running surface of both skis in contact with the crust layer
allows the skier to stay on top of the surface.
Sometimes the old (1950s era) Austrian heel-thrust technique works in
crust - just ignore the crust and power the turns pushing hard on the
tails of the skis.
When all else fails, leap and land - leap completely out of the crust and
land turned, hard enough to crush through the crust; repeat - make ugly
z-turns all the way down.

By the way, crust is not wind-blown. It is snow that has
been rained on or melted at the top layer only and refrozen.
I've encountered wind-blown firm surface over softer snow - not often, but
occasionally. But you're correct - usually windblown is a wonderful
surface - easy skiing.
Windblown is FIRM loose snow which is lots easier to ski
than the breakable crust you got into. How badly cut
up were your shins after your experience?
Thanks,

--Randy Starkey


Thanks for the input. It didn't mess up my shins, so the crust wasn't that
tough, but you're right, it was probably more than windblown. Melted is my
guess as there had been several days of nice sun. I just wasn't successful
in turning in it. I should have taken my clue when there were no tracks over
there...

uh-huh.

What you wanted was a bit more sun to soften the crust.
Then maybe...

Randy Starkey wrote:
Hi,

I am an advanced skier, not expert. I tried to ski a bowl at Copper, Union
Jack, it's a single/double diamond, and I got onto a steep portion of wind
blown crust. I broke through the crust with about 3 feet of soft shown under
it - my skis stopped and I didn't, and you can guess what happened - I went
downhill a ways and had to fight my way through that deep snow to go back
and get my skis.

What is the proper way to ski a steep with crust like that?

That sounds like good ol' Colorado breakable wind crust. Not melted,
just compacted by the wind. If you are heavy enough for the conditions
(and/or heavy enough on your skiing), you break through. Fatter shaped
skis are the trick often, with exaggerated (even) unweighting, and
aggressiveness.

Mike...

--
See my ski photography and Breckenridge photo ski blog at http://Powderday.us
Carpe powder-diem!
Direct link to by blog:
http://homepage.mac.com/saemisch/Pow...Blog05-06.html

Let Mikey Ski It! wrote:


Mike...


Pictures. The churning masses want pictures.

"Let Mikey Ski It!" wrote in message
...
Randy Starkey wrote:
Hi,

I am an advanced skier, not expert. I tried to ski a bowl at Copper,
Union
Jack, it's a single/double diamond, and I got onto a steep portion of
wind
blown crust. I broke through the crust with about 3 feet of soft
shown under
it - my skis stopped and I didn't, and you can guess what happened -
I went
downhill a ways and had to fight my way through that deep snow to go
back
and get my skis.

What is the proper way to ski a steep with crust like that?

That sounds like good ol' Colorado breakable wind crust. Not melted, just
compacted by the wind. If you are heavy enough for the conditions (and/or
heavy enough on your skiing), you break through. Fatter shaped skis are
the trick often, with exaggerated (even) unweighting, and aggressiveness.

Mike...

--

That sounds about right. I was on a pair of 170cm Rossi Zeniths which are
really more for carving (I'm 6-0 180), so not much base there. Sounds like I
should have just avoided it. This is a condition I'm not used to
recognizing. I should have gone down the center of the bowl in the bumps. At
least i know it's not easy to ski. Makes me feel a bit better about my crash


Thanks!

--Randy




See my ski photography and Breckenridge photo ski blog at
http://Powderday.us
Carpe powder-diem!
Direct link to by blog:
http://homepage.mac.com/saemisch/Pow...Blog05-06.html

Randy Starkey wrote:
snip
This is a condition I'm not used to recognizing....

So how ~would a person recognize this (before it's too late)? -or is
it just something you learn through experience?

-mark

mdR wrote:

This is a condition I'm not used to recognizing....

So how ~would a person recognize this (before it's too late)?

Straight dead-end tracks on an otherwise
inviting untracked pitch.

-- Mike Treseler