ski racing again

I am getting back into cross-country ski racing and am hoping for some fit
and model help. I used to race cross-country in college, classical style,
needless to say. I'm in good shape at 46 through cycling and so forth, so
fitness isn't an issue. I'm 5' 10" and 170 pounds. Now that I have moved
back to northern climes I have a fresh opportunity to get back into it, but
I think I will only buy one pair of skis right now, but I can't decide
between skate or classical. I've been told that even though I used to race
classical I will adapt quickly and enjoy skate skiing. A friend who does
some races here goes strictly classical, so there's the friend factor too.
Maybe the best deal at this time of year will dictate. I am inclined to go
with used skis since you can get more ski (as with bicycles) for the money.
Waxable only.

What length? What camber? Is there a website for this? I understand the
fit process is different than it used to be, accounting for weight and
height to yield guidelines for ski length and camber, but I don't know
specifics for me. I was also told at one trustworthy shop, by a guy who
allowed that he wasn't the most knowledgeable guy for cross-country, that
camber is not important for skate skis. Any input for length and camber
(other factors?) for skate skis and classical race skis would be
appreciated.

I haven't found anything good that is used in the Vancouver, BC area.
Looking at e-bay, I'm not sure where to begin, make-model-wise. I see on
e-bay the following right now:

178 cm. Atomic Beta Skate ski
185cm - 215cm Fischer BC Crown Skis (is this even a race ski?)
195cm Rossignol Active Cap XC Skis 195cm
205 cm. FISCHER RCS classic cold cross country skiis
187 cm. Fischer SCS Skatecut skis.
208 cm. Rossignol X-ium classic skis

Any suggestions?

Jim,
Welcome back to the sport!

This may not be exactly the answer you are looking for, but what the
heck, it's worth the price charged:-)

1. If you were in Minnesota the choice between skate and classic would
be tougher. In Vancouver, I'd go skate to start with - the snow
conditions will make you crazy trying to hit the wax right. Notice that
there are only 3 main waxes from -2C and colder, but about 6 or 7 from
27 up. Skating, all you have to worry about is hitting the glide wax
right - and close is good enough. Of course there is the friendship
angle...

2. IMHO, cycling and skating are good complementary activities.
3. Find a good XC shop in the Vancouver area and buy your first pair
from them. You want to make certain you get them flexed right, matched
to your size, ability and strength, (and price point).
4. If you can, take a lesson or two. Makes it a lot more fun.

Marsh Jones
New Brighton, MN

Jim Flom wrote:
I am getting back into cross-country ski racing and am hoping for some fit
and model help. I used to race cross-country in college, classical style,
needless to say. I'm in good shape at 46 through cycling and so forth, so
fitness isn't an issue. I'm 5' 10" and 170 pounds. Now that I have moved
back to northern climes I have a fresh opportunity to get back into it, but
I think I will only buy one pair of skis right now, but I can't decide
between skate or classical. I've been told that even though I used to race
classical I will adapt quickly and enjoy skate skiing. A friend who does
some races here goes strictly classical, so there's the friend factor too.
Maybe the best deal at this time of year will dictate. I am inclined to go
with used skis since you can get more ski (as with bicycles) for the money.
Waxable only.

What length? What camber? Is there a website for this? I understand the
fit process is different than it used to be, accounting for weight and
height to yield guidelines for ski length and camber, but I don't know
specifics for me. I was also told at one trustworthy shop, by a guy who
allowed that he wasn't the most knowledgeable guy for cross-country, that
camber is not important for skate skis. Any input for length and camber
(other factors?) for skate skis and classical race skis would be
appreciated.

I haven't found anything good that is used in the Vancouver, BC area.
Looking at e-bay, I'm not sure where to begin, make-model-wise. I see on
e-bay the following right now:

178 cm. Atomic Beta Skate ski
185cm - 215cm Fischer BC Crown Skis (is this even a race ski?)
195cm Rossignol Active Cap XC Skis 195cm
205 cm. FISCHER RCS classic cold cross country skiis
187 cm. Fischer SCS Skatecut skis.
208 cm. Rossignol X-ium classic skis

Any suggestions?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Flom"
To: "Multiple recipients of list NORDIC-SKI"

Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 5:14 PM
Subject: ski racing again


I am getting back into cross-country ski racing and am hoping for
some fit
and model help.

I've been told that even though I used to race
classical I will adapt quickly and enjoy skate skiing.

I agree.

A friend who does some races here goes strictly classical, so
there's the friend factor too.

Don't underestimate this - if this is a guy that you will want to ski
with, it's best to use the same
technique, and he will have local knowledge of conditions and stores.

Maybe the best deal at this time of year will dictate.

You may go wrong here, especially if you go the classical route. I
expect you remember that classic doesn't work well with a ski of the
wrong flex for you - I'd suggest that a 2nd tier classic ski from a
reputable shop that will guarantee the fit will yield a better ski
than taking a risk on a used top tier ski off of eBay or other used
source.

I am inclined to go with used skis since you can get more ski (as
with bicycles) for the money.

I've had good luck buying used bikes on eBay because I now know what
I'm doing, and what to check, what questions to ask, etc. Someone
with less current knowledge would have less success, I think. If you
get a klunker, you won't know for months and when you do, half your
ski season may be gone.

Waxable only.

I race in the Seattle area, which you know has similar weather.
Waxless skis are a respectable choice for racers here, and I fall back
onto them for maybe 70% of my classic races, and usually win my age
group with them. If you decide to start with classical, you WILL be
frustrated by the usually near freezing temps that I expect you also
will see there, and having a pair of wax-less skis will save you much
frustration. The other great choice in those temps is to skate.


I was also told at one trustworthy shop, by a guy who
allowed that he wasn't the most knowledgeable guy for cross-country
I haven't found anything good that is used in the Vancouver, BC
area.

I expect the situation is similare to Seattle in this regard - shops
that service the XC crowd are close to non-existant. We have the
giant REI, that sells back-country touring stuff, and a few skate
skis, and Marmot Mtn, which sells the same selection. For top level
classic gear we have to buy mail order or drive to a colder area.
This just makes sense given the conditions. Lots more skaters here,
and probably the same where you are.

I see on e-bay the following right now:


178 cm. Atomic Beta Skate ski

short for you - I'm 175, and skate on 190s - you should skate on 185,
maybe 190.

185cm - 215cm Fischer BC Crown Skis (is this even a race ski?)

Not a race ski - BC means Back Country, I THINK, and Crown = waxless.


205 cm. FISCHER RCS classic cold cross country skiis
208 cm. Rossignol X-ium classic skis

205 or 208 is probably good length for you, but flex is SO much more
important.

187 cm. Fischer SCS Skatecut skis.

SCS is 2nd tier ski - might be fine.

Any suggestions?

I'd suggest that you hold off on gear purchase now, and go to the XC
camps at Silver Star in late Nov, early December. I've been there
several times, but it's closer for you. I haven't actually done the
camp, but I've heard lots of good reports about it.
http://www.silverstarmtn.com/winter/nordic/xccamp.html

Till then, keep on biking, and add running, especially on trails.

Welcome back!
Erik Brooks, Seattle

"Marsh Jones" skrev i melding
news:8_L7c.62370$J05.459499@attbi_s01...
Jim,
Welcome back to the sport!

This may not be exactly the answer you are looking for, but what the
heck, it's worth the price charged:-)

1. If you were in Minnesota the choice between skate and classic would
be tougher. In Vancouver, I'd go skate to start with - the snow
conditions will make you crazy trying to hit the wax right. Notice that
there are only 3 main waxes from -2C and colder, but about 6 or 7 from
27 up. Skating, all you have to worry about is hitting the glide wax
right - and close is good enough. Of course there is the friendship
angle...

2. IMHO, cycling and skating are good complementary activities.
3. Find a good XC shop in the Vancouver area and buy your first pair
from them. You want to make certain you get them flexed right, matched
to your size, ability and strength, (and price point).
4. If you can, take a lesson or two. Makes it a lot more fun.

Marsh Jones
New Brighton, MN

In my neighbourhood, some shops are selling skis (new model) that can be
used for both diagonal and skate skiing. They are a little shorter than
classic skis. I also see people skate on classic skis.

--
Terje Henriksen
Kirkenes

"Terje Henriksen" wrote ...

In my neighbourhood, some shops are selling skis (new model) that can be
used for both diagonal and skate skiing. They are a little shorter than
classic skis. I also see people skate on classic skis.

The thing I have heard about those is that like a "hybrid" bike is supposed
to be for road or dirt but isn't, really, combo skis don't really do either
job well.

"Erik Brooks" wrote a lot of good stuff...

You may go wrong here, especially if you go the classical route. I
expect you remember that classic doesn't work well with a ski of the
wrong flex for you - I'd suggest that a 2nd tier classic ski from a
reputable shop that will guarantee the fit will yield a better ski
than taking a risk on a used top tier ski off of eBay or other used
source.

Good point. None of the skis I am seeing on e-bay are saying anything about
camber except a pair of 205 cm. Fischer RCSs, which the seller describes as
having "stiff" camber, and he cites it as the reason he is selling. Does
stiff translate into a ski for a more agressive skier, designed for stronger
kick or something?

I expect the situation is similare to Seattle in this regard - shops
that service the XC crowd are close to non-existant. We have the
giant REI, that sells back-country touring stuff, and a few skate
skis, and Marmot Mtn, which sells the same selection. For top level
classic gear we have to buy mail order or drive to a colder area.
This just makes sense given the conditions. Lots more skaters here,
and probably the same where you are.

There's one really good high end shop in Vancouver, Siggi's, which is
selling all their year end leftovers right now -- selection limited and
shrinking I do believe -- and the other shop I went to was Mountain Eqt.
Coop, which is basically a Canadian REI. Good stuff for back country, but
their X-C skis were lower end. I was thinking of getting my skis and
bindings at Siggi's and my poles and boots at REI, Mtn. Eqt. Coop, or Sports
Junkies (used, consignment). If they sell the right boots. I don't feel
like shelling out a thousand dollars to get back onto skis.

Thanks for the feedback regarding the skis ands training, and wow, that camp
sounds fun.

Jim

Jim Flom wrote:

[ ] Does
stiff translate into a ski for a more agressive skier, designed for stronger
kick or something?

It really should all be done by weight with known weight-flexes for the skis.
Stiff could mean anything. Well, it probably means for a hefty guy. I'd say
that flex is first of all for your weight, then for snow condition (stiff is
for hard icy stuff---klister in classic), then lastly for preference. I don't
hear much anymore about people with massive kick who can tame really stiff
skis. That was old days Bill Koch stuff. Or flat course classic stuff where
people were forgetting for awhile what classic meant. In skating also: it's for
your weight then trail condition.

[ ] I don't feel
like shelling out a thousand dollars to get back onto skis.

He's gonna get hooked! : )

OK, it's possible to get by. I see our local shop in Roscommon, MI, has a nice
complete new racing set-up, everything, for $500, with Visu skis (the people
who make everyone else's skis I guess). But then you'll need rollerskis : )
and wax and season passes and entry fees... oh yeah!

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publisher of do-it-yourself culture ... bikes, skis, boats & more! ...
... offering Vordenberg's XC ski tales in "Momentum"! ...
... "The Recumbent Bicycle": the only book about these bikes! ...
... Rudloe's "Potluck": true-life story of workingclass smuggling! ...
... with radical novels coming up via LiteraryRevolution.com! ...
... music! ... articles! ... travel forums! ... WOW! 800-763-6923

"Jeff Potter" wrote ...

It really should all be done by weight with known weight-flexes for the
skis.
Stiff could mean anything. Well, it probably means for a hefty guy. I'd
say
that flex is first of all for your weight, then for snow condition (stiff
is
for hard icy stuff---klister in classic), then lastly for preference. I
don't
hear much anymore about people with massive kick who can tame really stiff
skis. That was old days Bill Koch stuff. Or flat course classic stuff
where
people were forgetting for awhile what classic meant. In skating also:
it's for
your weight then trail condition.

Well that eliminates one option, and clarifies a bit. The seller of that
ski wrote back and said I shouls be over 210 pouinds for it to "really be
effective," and since that isn't about to happen, it narrows it down some.

OK, it's possible to get by. I see our local shop in Roscommon, MI, has a
nice
complete new racing set-up, everything, for $500, with Visu skis (the
people
who make everyone else's skis I guess). But then you'll need rollerskis
: )
and wax and season passes and entry fees... oh yeah!

I know only too well from cycling how quickly it all adds up!

Jeff Potter wrote in message ...

I don't
hear much anymore about people with massive kick who can tame really stiff
skis. That was old days Bill Koch stuff. Or flat course classic stuff where
people were forgetting for awhile what classic meant.

I agree with your advice about the fitting of the ski flex. However,
on the world cup, at least some people do use really stiff skis. When
kris freeman came back to NH for christmas, a guy i know went skiing
with him, and kris's kick-zone was the lenght of his binding plus an
inch in front.
laxer

laxer wrote:

Jeff Potter wrote in message ...

I don't
hear much anymore about people with massive kick who can tame really stiff
skis. That was old days Bill Koch stuff. Or flat course classic stuff where
people were forgetting for awhile what classic meant.

I agree with your advice about the fitting of the ski flex. However,
on the world cup, at least some people do use really stiff skis. When
kris freeman came back to NH for christmas, a guy i know went skiing
with him, and kris's kick-zone was the lenght of his binding plus an
inch in front.

Sounds maybe like a soft ski to me. : ) The softer the ski the larger the portion of ski that contacts the snow when
weighted so the less kick wax you can use without interfering with glide.

That's how my skis are anyway. I wish they were somewhat stiffer (or I weighed less) so I could use more wax.

Or maybe it was a klister ski.

The pros can get away with less wax, for better glide. I'm not sure it relates to flex. But I could believe that those
guys sometimes do vary in their preferences.

Does a stiffer classic ski usually mean more glide? I don't know. I think it surely doesn't for soft snow. Having the
right flex is the key thing---transitions from stiff to soft zones are impt, too.

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publisher of do-it-yourself culture ... bikes, skis, boats & more! ...
... offering Vordenberg's XC ski tales in "Momentum"! ...
... "The Recumbent Bicycle": the only book about these bikes! ...
... Rudloe's "Potluck": true-life story of workingclass smuggling! ...
... with radical novels coming up via LiteraryRevolution.com! ...
... music! ... articles! ... travel forums! ... WOW! 800-763-6923