Thomas Alsgaard on Drugs

I asked him if his peers ever discussed the issue of competitors taking
performance enhancing drugs....he stated that they did not talk alot, or
concern themselves with such thing and that they only focused on themselves and
their performance, that cheating was a broader problem wth society. I asked if
he had ever heard rumors of Muelegg being juiced and he said they did not. He
said we should trust WADA to do their job and that eventually people would get
caught. and since they could not control it they did not concern themselves
with it. (I find it hard to believe that atheletes in his position do not
concern themselves or discuss rumors of drug use, but that was his message) He
seemed uncomfortable and slightly irritated by my questions, but that is only
my perception...

Interesting idea about cheating being a social issue. I tend to agree, but would
add that it would have to affect the society of skiing, that is, its culture. I'd
think a cheater would HAVE to behave differently around his peers. One side effect
it seems to me would be quietness, reticence, aloofness, paranoia around peers.
Could one be a cheerful backslapper with people you were ripping off?

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publisher of outdoor/indoor do-it-yourself culture...
...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies...
...rare books on ski, bike, boat culture, plus a Gulf Coast thriller
about smalltown smuggling ... more radical novels coming up!
...original downloadable music ... and articles galore!
plus national "Off the Beaten Path" travel forums! HOLY SMOKES!

--- Jeff Potter wrote:
Interesting idea about cheating being a social issue. I tend to
agree, but would
add that it would have to affect the society of skiing, that is, its
culture. I'd
think a cheater would HAVE to behave differently around his peers.
One side effect
it seems to me would be quietness, reticence, aloofness, paranoia
around peers.
Could one be a cheerful backslapper with people you were ripping off?

"He didn't SEEM like a con man!". Successful cheaters just hide it
effectively. We don't have big brains to survive in nature. A house
cat is much better equiped to survive alone in the woods with a tiny
brain. We have large brains to survive each other. Detecting
cheating, and scheming to cheat, are big functions of the human brain.
It's an instict with us. We are good at detecting cheaters - so we
tend to cheat less with those we are close with because they spend more
time with us and have a better chance of detecting the cheating. But
we are also very good at cheating. I doubt I could meet an athlete and
tell by his behavior if he or she used performace enhancing drugs.

Rob Bradlee

This is a really complex topic.

Successful cheaters just hide it
effectively.

Do the drug cheaters look at it as cheating or a way to earn a better job?
It is no different from any other job where one is trying to get to the top.
Skiing, cycling, athletics, rowing whatever. For the champions, elite sport
is often not for the love of it but rather as a way to make a living (often
an enjoyable one). Unless you have been an elite athlete, it is unfair to
judge.

Look at it from the perspective of the athlete. If you have the choice
between earning many 10's of thousands of euro/kroner/dollars skiing and
going to work in the coal mine earning sweet FA what would you rather do?
Especially when you have a family. It is just another business decision that
has to be made to keep the business (i.e. the athlete) competitive.
Remember, most pros don't have much more education than high school (if
that). Their life has been devoted to sport and they need to make it work.
Keep in mind that professional sport is not amateur sport. On the list here,
we are all amateurs. If someone cheats in the local Volkslauf then they are
without doubt a total dickhead and a cheater. We need to keep it all in
perspective as to why it's happening.

I should mention that I don't like drugs and I don't want to ever justify
them but I know why they do it. It is just a fact of most elite sport. It's
unfair for the clean guys I don't have a realistic answer. Of course the
answer is clean sport but that realistically isn't going to happen. It is
far deeper than a social problem.

Bob



"Rob Bradlee" wrote in message
o.com...

--- Jeff Potter wrote:
Interesting idea about cheating being a social issue. I tend to
agree, but would
add that it would have to affect the society of skiing, that is, its
culture. I'd
think a cheater would HAVE to behave differently around his peers.
One side effect
it seems to me would be quietness, reticence, aloofness, paranoia
around peers.
Could one be a cheerful backslapper with people you were ripping off?

"He didn't SEEM like a con man!". Successful cheaters just hide it
effectively. We don't have big brains to survive in nature. A house
cat is much better equiped to survive alone in the woods with a tiny
brain. We have large brains to survive each other. Detecting
cheating, and scheming to cheat, are big functions of the human brain.
It's an instict with us. We are good at detecting cheaters - so we
tend to cheat less with those we are close with because they spend more
time with us and have a better chance of detecting the cheating. But
we are also very good at cheating. I doubt I could meet an athlete and
tell by his behavior if he or she used performace enhancing drugs.

Rob Bradlee

An (admittedly extreme) analogue to Bob's argument might go as follows.
I'm in competition for a good job, and there's just one other guy with
a chance to get it besides me. But this is professional stuff, not
just amateur sport or something, so probably I should just hire a
hitman to get rid of that guy, nothing really wrong with that,
especially since I'm one of those poor unfortunates who lives on
the wrong side of the Atlantic, so the only other jobs available
are hacking at trees and digging into the ground.

Not a very convincing argument in my books!


Also, "...concerning drugs" rather than "...on drugs" might have
been a better title for the thread, but that's not Bob's fault.

Best, Peter

On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 10:07:19 -0500, Jeff Potter
wrote:


Could one be a cheerful backslapper with people you were ripping off?

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publisher of outdoor/indoor do-it-yourself culture...
...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies...
...rare books on ski, bike, boat culture, plus a Gulf Coast thriller
about smalltown smuggling ... more radical novels coming up!
...original downloadable music ... and articles galore!
plus national "Off the Beaten Path" travel forums! HOLY SMOKES!


Jeez, Jeff, that is excatly whtat I'd look for in a cheater. Look at all
the used car salesmen ( the dishonest ones). If a person thinks they are
"special" enough to deserve an unfair advantage I think they probably would
have a "special" size ego to boot.

g.c.

It's a bad justification but I do see why it happens. There are varying
degrees of cheating of course and ski doping most often simply lets people
train more hours, get better training effect, etc. What they do with the
training boost is still up to them. Most dopers aren't winners: there are
tons of ways to screw up left to them still!

And I see the point about the 'jovial con man' angle. They don't call em
confidence men for nuthin. Silly me.

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publisher of outdoor/indoor do-it-yourself culture...
...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies...
...rare books on ski, bike, boat culture, plus a Gulf Coast thriller
about smalltown smuggling ... more radical novels coming up!
...original downloadable music ... and articles galore!
plus national "Off the Beaten Path" travel forums! HOLY SMOKES!

(Rob Bradlee) wrote in message news:
I doubt I could meet an athlete and
tell by his behavior if he or she used performace enhancing drugs.


Interesting point... I've met a lot of World Cup skiers over the years
at World Championships, Worldloppets, the American Birkebeiner and ski
shop such as Finn Sisu. I must admit the friendliest skiers I've met
were Muhlegg (very personable) (busted), Isometsa (busted) and
Botvinov (rumored to have used drugs by some). Other very friendly
skiers were the Italians DeZolt, Fauner, Albarello, Vanzetta and
Manuela DiCenta. Interestingly, Belmondo didn't seem too friendly nor
did Ulvang. Norwegians Torger Hanson, Arild Momsen, Anders Auckland
and Odd-Bjorn Hjelmeseth were very nice though as were all of the
Swedes like Mogren, Fredriksson, Staffan Larsson and Ottosson. I
suppose a lot of it has to do with how you feel on a given day.
Anyway, back to Rob's point, the drug cheaters were very friendly
people...

Jay Tegeder
"On the podium if the right people don't show up!" JT

Are you talking about Tonya Harding here?
An extreme but true example.
Gary Jacobson
Rosendale, NY

wrote in message
...
An (admittedly extreme) analogue to Bob's argument might go as follows.
I'm in competition for a good job, and there's just one other guy with
a chance to get it besides me. But this is professional stuff, not
just amateur sport or something, so probably I should just hire a
hitman to get rid of that guy, nothing really wrong with that,
especially since I'm one of those poor unfortunates who lives on
the wrong side of the Atlantic, so the only other jobs available
are hacking at trees and digging into the ground.

Not a very convincing argument in my books!


Also, "...concerning drugs" rather than "...on drugs" might have
been a better title for the thread, but that's not Bob's fault.

Best, Peter

I am not trying to justify their actions. In many instances it is a means of
survival. The hit man comparision has little meaning. Sabotage in the work
place happens all the time. Back stabbing, arse licking, whatever. At the
end of the day, no one gets hurt but some one comes out on top. Drugs are
the same. You have obviously had not been an been an elite athlete so as I
said in my first message "it is unfair to judge." You would never believe
how widespread it is and just how easy it is to get away with. Only the
careless get caught. Just get a smart doctor.

I have been at the elite level in cycling (world championships, world cups,
etc) and I never took any drugs other than vitamins. I was no champion but I
was racing in some sort of competition up to 4 times a week and training
like a maniac (often upto 30 hours a week). But I NEVER got injured becuase
of overuse injuries. Not once. No knee problems, no tendon problems, no
nothing. Either did any of the guys I trained with (All of who were drug
free). We discussed drugs openly so I feel that we were on the level.

Injuries are a big way to tell if some one is on the juice or not. Look at
all these skiers, cyclists, runners etc. They have an amazing season and
then they never achive the same results because of injury and sickness. It
is no coincidence. Another way to tell is if an athletes results go up and
down with no consistency. One season an athelete is un beatable only to be
an also ran the next (and beyond). How can a sport that is as fluid and non
impact such as skiing create so many over use injuries? Something wrong is
happening here.

Like I also said in the previous email "This is a complex topic". You can
never imagine what is going on until you've seen it with your own eyes. Just
forget about the idiots on drugs and concetrate on yourself. You will be
happier for it because it isn't going away. Professional sport is a
spectacle, not for the essense of competing. If it wasn't for the sponsors
then it wouldn't exist in its current form. (i.e. professionals). It is all
about selling more products. Sponsors what results, not also rans. It is
shame that the athletes are being used as the pawns.

Bob





wrote in message
...
An (admittedly extreme) analogue to Bob's argument might go as follows.
I'm in competition for a good job, and there's just one other guy with
a chance to get it besides me. But this is professional stuff, not
just amateur sport or something, so probably I should just hire a
hitman to get rid of that guy, nothing really wrong with that,
especially since I'm one of those poor unfortunates who lives on
the wrong side of the Atlantic, so the only other jobs available
are hacking at trees and digging into the ground.

Not a very convincing argument in my books!


Also, "...concerning drugs" rather than "...on drugs" might have
been a better title for the thread, but that's not Bob's fault.

Best, Peter