Ski damage to golf course?

Has anyone seen it happen?

There are golf freaks here, so you guys should know.

If so, what does it look like after the snow is gone? Lines in the
grass? Dots in the grass? (From poleplants.)

If so, what causes it? Is it excess traffic, skiing in mud? Pole plants
on thin snow? Are the greens most vulnerable?

I've never seen any such thing, but I suppose the courses I ski on only
see maybe 50 uses per season with very few ski tracks overlapping.

--JP

There must be something that can happen, because none of the golf
courses out here gets groomed. This is too bad, because golf courses
have rolling, skiable, tourist-friendly terrain that is easily groomed.

On the east coast, it seems that every touring center at least has part
of the trail system on a golf course.

It seems backwards that a place with tons of snow like CA would not
groom golf courses and on the east coast, where they are basically
skiing on thin layers of garden refuse half the time, they groom golf
courses.

bt

wrote:
Has anyone seen it happen?

There are golf freaks here, so you guys should know.

If so, what does it look like after the snow is gone? Lines in the
grass? Dots in the grass? (From poleplants.)

If so, what causes it? Is it excess traffic, skiing in mud? Pole
plants
on thin snow? Are the greens most vulnerable?

I've never seen any such thing, but I suppose the courses I ski on
only
see maybe 50 uses per season with very few ski tracks overlapping.


Skiers don't cause any problems in the rough and hardly any damage on
the fairways. However, the greens and tee boxes with much shorter grass
are vulnerable. There can be a few skate marks on the greens and tee
boxes. Usually, they are a ski outline burned into the sod. Most of the
golf course around here (Saint Paul) put fences around the greens. It
seems the better courses don't allow skiers in the first place in the
Twin Cities. The municipal tracks in Saint Paul and Minneapolis have
most of the golf course skiing. We love golf up here so there a re a
lot of golf courses to choose from...

Jay Tegeder
"On the podium if the right people don't show up!" JT

Originally Posted by

Has anyone seen it happen?

There are golf freaks here, so you guys should know.

If so, what does it look like after the snow is gone? Lines in the
grass? Dots in the grass? (From poleplants.)

If so, what causes it? Is it excess traffic, skiing in mud? Pole
plants
on thin snow? Are the greens most vulnerable?

I've never seen any such thing, but I suppose the courses I ski on
only
see maybe 50 uses per season with very few ski tracks overlapping.


Skiers don't cause any problems in the rough and hardly any damage on
the fairways. However, the greens and tee boxes with much shorter grass
are vulnerable. There can be a few skate marks on the greens and tee
boxes. Usually, they are a ski outline burned into the sod. Most of the
golf course around here (Saint Paul) put fences around the greens. It
seems the better courses don't allow skiers in the first place in the
Twin Cities. The municipal tracks in Saint Paul and Minneapolis have
most of the golf course skiing. We love golf up here so there a re a
lot of golf courses to choose from...

Jay Tegeder
"On the podium if the right people don't show up!" JT

I think Jay is right on this one. Any compression of snow, if by snowmobile track or ski, will place the snow particles in closer contact with each other and remove air spaces. That's why you "sink" into fresh snow. When air spaces are compressed out of snow, it looses its ability to act as an insulator. I have have the experience of removing 3 feet of powder snow from on top of our sandy soils on a sub-zero day and then easily digging unfrozen soil at the bottom of the hole because the snow kept the ground from freezing. In fact, one of the reasons to groom every snow that falls is to be sure that a ski trail is completely compacted (vertically) so that the ground under it freezes and refrigerates the snow on warmer days.

So when you ski over grass, you cause a local ground termperature decrease. This can cause freeze damage to plants that other wise would be insulated from the coldest temperatures. As sugggested, hardy rough grasses are less prone to damage than the tender, short grasses on tees and greens. In addition, the thicker the ground cover, the more difficult it is to compress the snow all the way to ground level. In fact, that's why we mow the brush on ski trails - not to make them look nice, but to make them freeze down and hold snow.

How much skiing will cause damage? I have seen one study that said that 4 passes in the same track in 6 inches of snow will produce a measureable temperature effect at gound level (I'll see if I can find the reference for this one). Of course, the same is true of any activity the compresses snow like walking or snowshoeing as well. The impact is relative to how much compression happens which, I guess, is a function of the pounds per square foot of bearing area - walking in boots would be worse that skiing or snowshoeing.

Other concerns - compaction of snow may also inhibit the movement of animals that tunnel under the snow or depend on its insulation like mice. My huskie cross breed sled dog is always running with his nose under the snow sniffing for moles and mice. He's a fairly successful hunter and it is surprising how many there are out there. You may have noticed a large spider-web like pattern in the snow when it melts down to a inch or so in the spring. That's the remains of rodent tunnels under the snow.

Of course, snowmobiles produce the same impact as any other compression of snow, although a large track actually has very good floatation. But a couple of gentle passes and there is measureable temperature change. Another impact they produce is physical damage to the ground caused by a rapidly spinning track digging to ground level and them some. This can be avoided by proper operation and some respect for the geography and snow depth.

Here in upper NY state, golf courses sometimes put a plastic tarp as a "frost barrier" on greens, and as Jay mentioned, fence them off with orange construction site fencing. If a golf course were to proactively manage for skiing by locating formal ski trails on cart paths and roughs in advance of winter, no damage would result. The local private club (I live on a fairway) did try to charge community members dues to x-c ski in the winter, but since there were a lot of access points and enforcement was impossible, they gave up charging and as a result there is no way to cover the costs of grooming. So they fence greens and ignore tresspass. As a groomer, I'd love to go out my back door and ski groomed trails, but when I approached management at the club, they couldn't figure out how it would pay for itself.

By the way, for grooming with a snowmobile and drag (based on volunteer work I already do), they would have to make $10 per hour (based on 100 hours of operation per season) just to cover fuel, depreciation, repairs, and insurance. To actually make money on grooming, they would have to add labor and fringes to that, so somewhere around $35.00 per hour is not out of the question. So the golf course would have to recover more than $3,500 - $5,000 per season to provide 5+ miles of trails. I don't know if they would have additional insurance costs or other costs that would make it less likely they could make a buck.

Municipal owned courses might be more likely to groom because everyone in town is a "customer", the costs could be more broadly distributed via general taxes (non skiers pay!), operating at break-even (costs=revenues) is as good as it gets for government, and there probably are maintenance workers on the payroll all winter who are underemployed.

Hope this answers your questions.

wrote:
wrote:

Has anyone seen it happen?
There are golf freaks here, so you guys should know.
If so, what does it look like after the snow is gone?



Skiers don't cause any problems in the rough and hardly any damage on
the fairways. However, the greens and tee boxes with much shorter grass
are vulnerable.

Any damage to the tee boxes absolutely pales in comparrison to the
divots caused by the golfers themselves. If you've ever played the
game you'll know that it's normal to take a little turf with your shot.
That'll beat up the lawn much more than skiing across it.

Greens are another story - but they're usually fenced off or otherwise
marked. If not, you should avoid skiing over them.

--
//-Walt
//
// There is no Völkl Conspiracy

I think golf course manager are worried more about snow mold. When the
snow gets packed down there is a greater tendency for mold to grow on
the grass. Grooming the rough would be no problem. But managers spend
lots of $$ maintaining nice fairways and when grass dis it's expensive.
Divots can be replaced and the grass will grow back.

Ralph Thornton

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So skiing can lower ground temperature and increase risk of snow mold.

How likely is it then that there will be damage? How low does the temp
need to get to hurt grass? How much risk actually gets you snow mold
and what does that do?

I've never seen damage from light ski traffic, but I wonder.

Also I'm now skiing in marginal conditions on golf courses. I've
already seen where I've skied has melted away and there's green grass,
no ski trace. I do note that the maintanence vehicles leave faint
yellow tire lines where they've driven.

I don't want to do any actual, real harm to grass or give any legit
excuse for courses to hassle me.

However, I understand that various activity will have some kind of
impact or alter risk levels: I'm just wondering when it actually
results in dead grass, etc.

I suspect that a lot of people tend to worry when they see me doing
almost anything I do! : ) Our culture is based on worry. I need to
get beyond the worry. I definitely don't want to hurt their grass.

Further, if I do impair it in some way, I wonder if it grows back in a
week or what recovery might be like.

About charging for grooming versus an incomplete police state... My
view is that I'd think that if a community wanted grooming that enough
would pay to cover the costs, if they were reasonable when divied up,
especially if they knew that if they didn't they wouldn't have
grooming. I don't think it's security (access points, etc.) that
determines viability. E.g., if there are 50 likely regulars for a trail
(a local club, say) they should be approached and if they're willing to
cover costs between them, they get grooming. Anything extra is gravy.
If they're not willing, viability is highly unlikely. A market is a
market, with or without security.

--JP

wrote in message
oups.com...
There must be something that can happen, because none of the golf
courses out here gets groomed. This is too bad, because golf courses
have rolling, skiable, tourist-friendly terrain that is easily groomed.

On the east coast, it seems that every touring center at least has part
of the trail system on a golf course.

It seems backwards that a place with tons of snow like CA would not
groom golf courses and on the east coast, where they are basically
skiing on thin layers of garden refuse half the time, they groom golf
courses.

I am no expert but I will venture a guess that New England golf courses have
little trouble with winter kill spots bouncing back in the spring. compared
to West Coast.where it looks like you have a hard time getting grass to
grow.

In article .com,
wrote:

So skiing can lower ground temperature and increase risk of snow mold.
I'm not sure it's all temperature related, at least not below freezing
temperature. Unpacked snow will melt faster in the spring but packed
snow stays on the ground longer and that somehow promotes the mold.


How likely is it then that there will be damage? How low does the temp
need to get to hurt grass? How much risk actually gets you snow mold
and what does that do?
Depending on the species the mold can kill the grass. Like I said golf
course managers don't like brown spots or dead grass. In my lawn I would
give a hoot but on a golf course that supposed to be green it's another
story.

I've never seen damage from light ski traffic, but I wonder.
Me either. I don't think the occasional skier will cause any damage. I
think most damage occurs when snow is packed down hard and this perists
into the spring thaw.

Also I'm now skiing in marginal conditions on golf courses. I've
already seen where I've skied has melted away and there's green grass,
no ski trace. I do note that the maintanence vehicles leave faint
yellow tire lines where they've driven.
I'd bet the maintenance vehicles drove on the grass when it was either
frozen and not snow covered or they packed the snow so hard that no
light reached the snow causing the grass to turn yellow. Snow mold is a
whitish stuff that looks like filaments all tangled up on the surface of
the grass.

Ralph Thornton

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"Walt" wrote in message
...
wrote:
wrote:

Has anyone seen it happen?
There are golf freaks here, so you guys should know.
If so, what does it look like after the snow is gone?



Skiers don't cause any problems in the rough and hardly any damage on
the fairways. However, the greens and tee boxes with much shorter grass
are vulnerable.

Any damage to the tee boxes absolutely pales in comparrison to the
divots caused by the golfers themselves. If you've ever played the
game you'll know that it's normal to take a little turf with your shot.
That'll beat up the lawn much more than skiing across it.

Greens are another story - but they're usually fenced off or otherwise
marked. If not, you should avoid skiing over them.


Walt you're probably right, but I don't agree with the logic. Divots are a
normal part of the wear and tear on a golf course. If (I say "IF") skis
damage also, it may indeed be that the damage is relatively less than
divots. But, you're adding damage that is not normal to the sport of golf,
adding to the normal damage, the total damage is therefore greater. I'm not
even a golfer, but would imagine that golfcourse design and maintenance
takes into consideration normal damage to the course caused by golf itself,
but does not necessarily account for damage by non golfing activities such
as skiing, or even other stuff that could damage the course like biking and
even excessive walking (like if non-golfers used the course for running or
walking). Just a thought.

Cam