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rollerblading to improve BC Skiing?



 
 
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  #11  
Old February 17th 05, 04:12 PM
Ken Roberts
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Booker wrote
[ lots of good advice and anaylsis ]
. . .
roller blades don't bend, so they don't respond in
the same way to weighting/unweighting that is central
to any skiing. They are very good at simulating angulation
though and are good practice for the new skis that
respond well to "rolling the knees".


I agree, it is amazing to me how much linked downhill turns on rollerskis
with strongly flexed ankles feels like carving on modern shaped skis. Even
though the physics is completely different.

My problem is that the cost of replacing wheels -- after the inside edges of
the wheels have been grinded by putting a little "skid" on the end of each
christie turn for braking on a moderate downhill. I think the
wheel-replacement per vertical feet of descent is almost as much as buying
lift-tickets at a downhill resort.

Ken


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  #12  
Old February 17th 05, 04:27 PM
Peter Clinch
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Ken Roberts wrote:

Why? How?
What is it about the physics or biomechanics of rollerskis that makes them
more "specific" for backcountry skiing than inline skates?


Because you use a boot that flexes under the ball of your foot to
transfer power straight back, where blades will only allow you to kick
off at an angle to the line of the skate.

How many rollerskiers can make linked christie/parallel turns down a hill
like a good inline skater?

How many rollerskiers can make a long glide on a single ski and change
between the inside and outside edges 8 times like I can on inline skates (or
on a single backcountry snow ski going down a firm-snow slope).


And how many rollerbladers can use good straight ahead diagonal stride
to cover a lot of ground over the great majority of muscle use time
spent over a day?

Personally I use blades, but my friendly neighbourhood nordic instructor
and professional backcountry tour leader uses rollers in direct
preference because they're more like skis for the business ofbasically
covering ground. If you're in a steep up, steep down mode then I would
say they'd have little utility, but a lot of backcountry skiing is about
covering reasonably level ground in straight lines, which rollerskis can
help with better than blades.
My backcountry touring typically uses more nordic flat technique than
downhill with day's hut to hut in Norway typically involving single
figures of tricky turns, but double figures of kilometers following
tracks. YMMV.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

  #13  
Old February 17th 05, 04:35 PM
Peter Clinch
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Booker C. Bense wrote:

_ It depends what you define as "ski specific", roller skis are
notorious for messing up your classic striding technique


I'd not heard that, to be honest. Also the case that the technically
best nordic striders I personally know, all current or past BASI Nordic
coaches, use and suggest roller skis. Me, I use blades 'cause they're
more fun IMHO, but the serious Nordic folk I know all say rollers do a
better job.

far as turning goes they are no better than roller blades and
many of the older designs are just terrible.


Granted.

_ You can even practice something that looks like a telemark
turn, although I'm not sure that it's all that useful other
than as a quad burning exercise.


I imagine it would be a bit like a tele on randonee gear, on tippy-toes.
Must admit the one occasion I tried to initiate one I abandoned it in
favour of not doing a body-plant on tarmac...

_ Running is good aerobic training, but on flat ground it
doesn't provide the quad and body core exercise that skiing
requires.


I dislike running because of the impact (I'm a heavy, clmsy runner and
have very high arches, it just hurts too much), but cycling I do like.
Not much for the body core, but it is good for the quads.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

  #14  
Old February 17th 05, 05:16 PM
Ken Roberts
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Whoops -- I meant "inline skates" (not rollerskis) for snow-ski-like
downhill turning feel.
What I meant to say was:

Booker wrote
[ lots of good advice and anaylsis ]
. . .
roller blades don't bend, so they don't respond in
the same way to weighting/unweighting that is central
to any skiing. They are very good at simulating angulation
though and are good practice for the new skis that
respond well to "rolling the knees".


I agree, it is amazing to me how much linked downhill turns on inline skates
with strongly flexed ankles feels like carving on modern shaped skis. Even
though the physics is completely different.

My problem is that the cost of replacing skate wheels -- after the inside
edges of the wheels have been grinded by putting a little "skid" on the end
of each christie turn for braking on a moderate downhill. I think the
wheel-replacement cost per vertical foot of descent might be almost as much
as buying lift-tickets at a downhill resort.

Ken



  #15  
Old February 17th 05, 05:56 PM
Tommy T.
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"Peter Clinch" wrote in message
...
Booker C. Bense wrote:

_ It depends what you define as "ski specific", roller skis are
notorious for messing up your classic striding technique


I'd not heard that, to be honest. Also the case that the technically
best nordic striders I personally know, all current or past BASI Nordic
coaches, use and suggest roller skis.


I, too, was surprised by that comment. They are certainly recommended for
classic stride training by the Ski Research Group out of Eagle River.

I would note that the major roller ski manufacturers, in particular, V2,
make different models for classic or skate stride. A free rolling roller
ski might not develop a good kick and glide technique because of lack of
resistance but good roller skis all have resistance built in now.

Tommy T.


  #16  
Old February 17th 05, 06:15 PM
Ken Roberts
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Peter Clinch wrote
My backcountry touring typically uses more nordic flat technique.


In that case I can see how you'd think of "classic" rollerskis, which have a
clutch to prevent the rollerski from rolling backwards (sort of like the
effect of a climbing skin). But the Original Poster mentioned "telemark
turns", so I didn't think he was looking for that. (But then some "skate"
devices other than rollerskis do also have a clutch, so why not try using
those to train for flat touring?)

a lot of backcountry skiing is about covering
reasonably level ground in straight lines


If I know a pretty tour that's mostly flat and gentle, I prefer to wait
until a day when the snow is pretty firm, and then _skate_ most of it on
very-light skating skis. For a great article about ski skating in the
backcountry, see "Skating's Second Season -- backcountry skiing takes on a
new twist", by Mark Nadell, in
http://farwestnordic.org/Newsletters...cnews_2005.pdf
Even with some new snow, like 8 cm / 3 inches of fluffy powder -- if it's
over a firm base -- is fun skating on rolling terrain with light skating
skis.

For learning technique and neural control, the value of Classic rollerskis
is very debatable in the XC set-track skiing community (as Booker pointed
out).

For training endurance and speed of specific leg muscles for flat
backcountry skiing, Yes I can see value in Classic rollerskis -- but that
raises the question of:
? traditional roller skates ("quad" skates) versus
? Classic rollerskis

which I've never seen debated.

my friendly neighbourhood nordic instructor


My theory is that nordic instructors are unconsciously against inline skates
because they're afraid that if people found it how much easy fun they
could be having moving on their feet, the demand for techniques and
character-building tours of one-dimensional skiing on snow would drop.

Ken
_________________________________
Peter Clinch wrote
Ken Roberts wrote:

Why? How?
What is it about the physics or biomechanics of rollerskis that makes

them
more "specific" for backcountry skiing than inline skates?


Because you use a boot that flexes under the ball of your foot to
transfer power straight back, where blades will only allow you to kick
off at an angle to the line of the skate.

How many rollerskiers can make linked christie/parallel turns down a

hill
like a good inline skater?

How many rollerskiers can make a long glide on a single ski and change
between the inside and outside edges 8 times like I can on inline skates

(or
on a single backcountry snow ski going down a firm-snow slope).


And how many rollerbladers can use good straight ahead diagonal stride
to cover a lot of ground over the great majority of muscle use time
spent over a day?

Personally I use blades, but my friendly neighbourhood nordic instructor
and professional backcountry tour leader uses rollers in direct
preference because they're more like skis for the business ofbasically
covering ground. If you're in a steep up, steep down mode then I would
say they'd have little utility, but a lot of backcountry skiing is about
covering reasonably level ground in straight lines, which rollerskis can
help with better than blades.
My backcountry touring typically uses more nordic flat technique than
downhill with day's hut to hut in Norway typically involving single
figures of tricky turns, but double figures of kilometers following
tracks. YMMV.



  #17  
Old February 17th 05, 06:25 PM
Booker C. Bense
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article ,
Peter Clinch wrote:
Booker C. Bense wrote:

_ It depends what you define as "ski specific", roller skis are
notorious for messing up your classic striding technique


I'd not heard that, to be honest. Also the case that the technically
best nordic striders I personally know, all current or past BASI Nordic
coaches, use and suggest roller skis.


_ If you're racing they are a must, and for skating I'm not aware
of any drawbacks if you can get enough friction in the wheels to
simulate snow speeds. There is nothing like specific training and
roller skiing is as specific as you can get without snow, but
until they figure out a way to simulate the effect of weighting
the ski to set the kick wax, roller skiing can lead to some
bad habits that require unlearning once you get on snow. For
a good skier with a coach, this disadvantage is greatly
outweighed by the specific traing provided, but for a novice
skier with no supervision it can really cause problems.

_ Back in the dark ages when I was XC racing, my coaches used
to emphasize that aspect a lot during dryland training. We
were taught to focus on weighting the ski during roller skiing
even though the mechanism did not require it, or at least not
to the extent that a highly cambered racing ski does. Personally,
I detested roller skiing and would rather do just about any other
kind of dryland training. I'm sure roller skis are much better
now that back then, but from what I read on rec.skiing.nordic
it seems like this is still a problem.

_ As for the original poster, you might try poking around
ebay or garage sales for a Nordic Track trainer. Here's
what I mean

http://tinyurl.com/49blg

_ You can get them used fairly cheap and they do provide
a good ski specific workout.

_ Booker C. Bense





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  #18  
Old February 17th 05, 06:42 PM
Booker C. Bense
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Posts: n/a
Default

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article 5V4Rd.23534$ya6.9984@trndny01,
Tommy T. wrote:

"Peter Clinch" wrote in message
...
Booker C. Bense wrote:

_ It depends what you define as "ski specific", roller skis are
notorious for messing up your classic striding technique


I'd not heard that, to be honest. Also the case that the technically
best nordic striders I personally know, all current or past BASI Nordic
coaches, use and suggest roller skis.


I, too, was surprised by that comment. They are certainly recommended for
classic stride training by the Ski Research Group out of Eagle River.


_ All I have to say is that neither England or the USA are noted
for their dominance in any kind of XC racing never mind classic.

_ Booker C. Bense




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  #19  
Old February 17th 05, 08:17 PM
Tommy T.
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Default


"Booker C. Bense"
bbense+rec.skiing.backcountry.Feb.17.05@telemark. slac.stanford.edu wrote
_ All I have to say is that neither England or the USA are noted
for their dominance in any kind of XC racing never mind classic.


Aw, come on man. Didn't Bill Koch win an Olympic Medal?

My son was on the U.S. Ski Orienteering Team for the World Championships in
1994. My recollection is that none of the U.S. men successfully finished
the course. For the 2002 SWOC, the top U.S. woman was a Colorado resident
born in 1944. (She's a dear friend and while I've given her age I won't
give her name.)

Tommy T.


  #20  
Old February 17th 05, 09:58 PM
H.W. Stockman
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"Booker C. Bense"
bbense+rec.skiing.backcountry.Feb.17.05@telemark. slac.stanford.edu wrote
in message ...
[...]
_ As for the original poster, you might try poking around
ebay or garage sales for a Nordic Track trainer. Here's
what I mean

http://tinyurl.com/49blg

_ You can get them used fairly cheap and they do provide
a good ski specific workout.



I wasn't specific enough in stating what I wanted. I don't have any problem
with a diamond glide; I am much more interested in regaining turning skills
so I can ski down a slope amid trees without as great a chance of serious
injury. I'm aerobically fit; as I said, I routinely run 10 miles at a shot,
and more important, I do one tiring hike over very rough, trailless
territory each week (usually with class 3 or 4 rock). In fact, the latter
activity makes a lot of people think that I am being overly cautious about
skiing.

(me, me, me:
http://hwstock.org/bp/html/Traverse.htm
http://hwstock.org/dams/html/DSCN6660.htm
http://hwstock.org/bripi/html/FlyingHarlan.htm
)

But my affliction requires lots of specific training so I can learn to
replace cerebellar control with cerebral control. This process is very
inefficient (there is a reason the cerebellum, though only 10% of the
brain's mass, has 60% of the neurons). I walked over 200 miles on sidewalk
curbs to regain my balance; and I took every opportunity to walk over any
rough surface, and I graded my hikes to successively harder and harder
terrain. My right foot still doesn't always move as predicted, so I've
learned to use my left foot to lead in many tight situations. Now I have to
do the same thing with skiing motions, particularly the fast motions in
turns. I'll find a way.

Thanks all, sincerely, for your help; this discussion has given me food for
thought.


 




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