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Our snowboarding misadventure at Seven Springs



 
 
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  #11  
Old January 19th 04, 06:49 PM
toddjb
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Default Our snowboarding misadventure at Seven Springs

"Joe Ramirez" wrote in message ...

Joe, sorry your first experience was a bad one. The best takeaways
from everyone here is 1) don't go on a weekend and 2) don't go when
its icy (which is tough to call since the condition reports always
lie).

I go to 7Springs a lot and its a nice hill. Particularly the North
Face area once you've gotten the hang of basic skills. So, don't
discount the resort.

Regarding your $130, I'd contact the resort or write a letter and
pretty much spell out all the negatives from your post here. It is to
the resorts advantage to teach you correctly because then you'll come
back and spend more $ with them on lifts, food and rentals. If you
get the right person on the phone or send a letter to the owner, I would
be very surprised if you did not get 2 free lesson/rental vouchers
for you to give it another try.

Or go to a small mountain.

Yes, go for the private lesson.

As unrecommended as this is, when I learned we just rented boards, went
to the bunny lift and figured it out. We had tips from a couple people
and asked other boarders we saw for advice which most provided. These
days most people recommend taking a lesson to increase your learning
curve, but if you're patient and have someone to give you tips along the
way, you can figure it out on your own like many people do. (Instructors
rarely admit to this since they see only the carnage of self-teaching
gone bad...the ones that get through it don't come crawling to them!

Try it again. Its a fun sport,
-todd
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  #12  
Old January 19th 04, 08:18 PM
Han Solo (D)
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Default Our snowboarding misadventure at Seven Springs

(toddjb) wrote:


As unrecommended as this is, when I learned we just rented boards,
went to the bunny lift and figured it out. We had tips from a couple
people and asked other boarders we saw for advice which most provided.
These days most people recommend taking a lesson to increase your
learning curve, but if you're patient and have someone to give you
tips along the way, you can figure it out on your own like many people
do. (Instructors rarely admit to this since they see only the carnage
of self-teaching gone bad...the ones that get through it don't come
crawling to them!


Well, it's just an easy calculation: if you don't have the time to go
very often (let's say, two weeks per winter total), you can
a) either take all the two weeks to self-improve
b) or take just one or two lessons, and get all the improvements in one
or two days -- and use the rest of the remaining days to enjoy driving
better!

I don't say that a "normal" snowboarder can't give you tips on
snowboarding.

I can tell you from my experience: I was snowboarding for about 5 years.
I was quite good and came down the slopes well. But at this time it just
took very long to improve my skills.
So I decided to take instructor lessons, and two things happened:
- I learned in one week as much as in the last 2-3 years
- I now knew WHY to move in a special way, why to bend the knees, ...

Plus, I now know how to give that information to others.


It's similar with education...
Understand?

Martin
  #13  
Old January 20th 04, 12:30 AM
Jürgen Schmadlak
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Default Our snowboarding misadventure at Seven Springs

Joe Ramirez wrote:

What went wrong: Just about everything else.


sorry about that.

Seven Springs has a beginner package for $65 that includes boots and board
rental, a 90-minute group lesson, and a limited access lift ticket. (The


I rented the equipment in a Shop in my hometown. We rented for one
week:

Board: 50- Euro (60 US$)
Boots: 39- Euro (47 US$)

We had a very good service. I tried more than one hour till a find a
boot that fits on my foot. We had a long talk how to stand an the
board, goofy or regular.

On the next day we went for one week to Sölden/Austria and checked
in to a 3 day group lesson (4 hours a day, 123 Euro/150 US$). There
were two beginner groups, one for kids and one for adult, so I (37)
decide the adult group (6 persons).

The first 2 hours we spend on the idiot hill. Walking up and try to
go down just to get the control on the board.

After lunch we used the lift. It was high season but on the slope
was enough place for all the people.

I really couldn't get the board on edge at all -- when we were supposed to
try linking turns. I'd say that of the eight people in the group, perhaps


My first turn I made on my *second* day on the board. After 5 hours
course I had the feeling that I can make it. On the third day it was
really fun - spitting on the pain in every part of my body.

On the whole, the experience was like learning to ride a bicycle by going
downhill with no brakes, and with dozens of pedestrians and other riders


Bad equipment, bad instructor and crowded slope. Sounds bad.

to the parking lot, my son remarked, "Well, that's one thing I never want to
do again. That was horrible."


Try harder :-)

perspective and my disinclination to go alone -- we'll have to try private
lessons and figure out when there'll be some real open space available for
learning. I'm not sure what to do about equipment. Today's experience


Maybe look for good shop to rent the equipment. If you know another
boarder ask him for help you with the equipment. For a beginner a 2
day curse is a good idea. In 90 minutes you learn nothing.

Private lesson can also be a good idea, but I learned much when I
was watching how the other guys make mistakes. Our instructor
explained everything very good (thank you, Alex).

--
Satisfy your thirst for life!
NP: Velvet Underground - Lisa Says
  #14  
Old January 20th 04, 01:20 AM
Johnny K
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Default Our snowboarding misadventure at Seven Springs

sorry to hear that.. I just started snowboarding a few weeks ago, but
didn't bother with lessons or anything.. What i did was go to my local
ski hill (wiht a massive 200foot vertical drop), and brought my friend
(who, as chance would have it, is a snowboard instructor there).. He
just showed me some basics (after watching me fly down the hill straight
the first time).. He err, held my hands, with my board perpendicular
to the slope, and had me put my weight on the front, and watch how it
starts to go straight down the hill.. The the same with the back, so it
comes donw the hill, and I end up perpendicular again, but backwards..
After I got proficient with that, it was time for me to go solo.. I just
went around all day trying, and picked it up! It's quite fun now! I say
give it a whirl on your OWN terms this time.. a 1 on 1 lesson.. (And I
bought my own equipment before hand, because I had an inkling that I was
going to enjoy it).. thats the best advice from 1 novice to another that
I can give..

Joe Ramirez wrote:

A couple of weeks ago, I started a thread here, "Snowboarding or skiing?",
that generated much discussion and many helpful contributions from group
members. To recap, I'm 42, my son is 14, and neither of us had ever
snowboarded before. We decided to give the sport a shot at the Seven Springs
resort near us in Pennsylvania. I thought the group might be interested in
learning how our first day went. Those with a low tolerance for tedium may
wish to stop reading now.

What went right:
*After reading about how to dress for the slopes, we bought long underwear,
fleece, goggles, snowboarding gloves, etc. We were quite warm today.
*Our rental boots & boards used step-in bindings, which turned out to be
invaluable -- not just for getting into the bindings, but also for getting
out of them. I often found that the only way to get from one place to
another on the hill was to pick up the board and walk.
*The snow-covered trees in the mountains southeast of Pittsburgh were very
pretty.

What went wrong: Just about everything else.

Actually, our first day of snowboarding was supposed to have been last
Sunday, but my son got sick and we had to postpone the trip for a week. Too
bad, because last week was consistently cold, and I think the snow was in
better shape (though mostly machine-made). This week was very cold up until
yesterday, when the temperature suddenly rose, and it rained for a while.
Then it turned colder again. The result was a wetter, icier environment.

The day got off to a comic start this morning as I was viewing the Seven
Springs snow report on my notebook computer. I walked across the room to
show it to my wife, then returned to my seat, still staring at the screen.
Unfortunately, the screen was not transparent, so I did not see the footrest
sticking out from the couch, which I tripped over magnificently. I banged
and scraped my foot, shin and knee, though the computer happily survived.
This turned out to be my worst fall of the day, though I'm not sure I can
legitimately claim it as snowboard-related.

At the beginning of the drive to Seven Springs, we were descending a steep
hill in our area that turned out to be ice-covered and unsalted. The car
spun around several times before ending up in a grassy field on the side of
the road. Luckily, we didn't hit anything, so we were able to pull back onto
the road, gingerly crawl down the rest of the hill, and resume the trip. But
the near-accident turned out to be a bad omen.

Seven Springs has a beginner package for $65 that includes boots and board
rental, a 90-minute group lesson, and a limited access lift ticket. (The
package is cheaper for skiers, because the ski rental costs less. Why is
that?) We purchased two of these packages for a total of $130. We never even
got near a lift today, so I guess we lost money on that part of the deal.

I had thought that equipment selection and use would be part of the lesson,
but it wasn't. A guy just handed us boots after learning our shoe sizes.
There was no effort to ensure a truly good fit, or to explain how all the
various fasteners worked. I had to keep going back to the rental desk to ask
questions. After we got one of my son's boots on and fastened, I noticed
that the other one was missing a strap, so we had to start again with a new
pair. My own boots were size 11. I suppose that they fit me adequately after
a lot of tugging on the laces, but I think that the model was probably too
wide to start with. My heels felt a bit loose, and there was a certain
Frankenstein's monster quality to my stomping.

After all the boots were tied, I happened to look down at my hand and notice
that the skin was shredded on two fingers from all the lace pulling. The
rental clerk responded vacantly when I asked where first aid was, so I just
wandered around until I thought of trying the childcare area. Sure enough,
the supervisor there had a whole box of first aid supplies, so I was able to
find a couple of bandages for my fingers.

My son and I were given the same model of snowboard (Rossignol), though his
was a little longer than mine. That struck me as odd, since we are within
.25" to .5" in height (he is tall for a 14-year-old -- about six feet), but
I outweigh him by 40-50 pounds. When we finally got out on the slope, I
discovered that the binding for my front (left) foot was almost
perpendicular to the major axis of the board, which turned out to be
inconvenient for me. There was so much angle to the foot placement that it
hurt to twist my left knee when I had to scoot with the left foot on the
board and the right foot pushing. Also, I keep my balance much better when I
can turn my left foot more toward to the direction in which I'm heading. It
felt awkward to have it pointing to the side. Our instructor said it was
possible to rotate the binding on the board, but I tried it on the hill and
it didn't budge.

The group lesson itself turned out to be of little use. There were about
five groups of eight for the 2:00 p.m. snowboarding beginners' lesson, and
probably as many for the skiing lesson, so if you pictured the slope as very
crowded, you'd be right. I was the only adult in our group of eight. The
instructor went through a series of lessons in a set order, and from my
perspective it didn't seem to make much difference whether the students
mastered a step or not before the next came along. Stand on the board | Push
the board | Slide with both feet on the board, but only one in the bindings
| Toeside turn | Heelside turn | Try both feet in the bindings | Now try
linking turns. I wasn't close to being able to turn effectively -- in fact,
I really couldn't get the board on edge at all -- when we were supposed to
try linking turns. I'd say that of the eight people in the group, perhaps
two (both little kids -- this seems to be a relatively bad sport for taller
folks to learn) could do a half-decent single turn. Everyone else would
slide down the hill a bit, make some kind of effort, perhaps turn a little,
then flop over in a heap. This was about one hour into the lesson. At this
point my son, who was very far from enjoying himself, and I just left.

An even bigger problem, from my perspective, was that the slope was so
crowded. Boarders and skiers were everywhere, moving in every direction, or
sometimes just sitting or lying on the snow. It's fine for a skilled
instructor to maneuver among the crowds, but I don't think it's right to ask
someone like me to learn in such conditions. Child beginners tend to be
heedless of where they'll end up when they start moving. However, as an
adult, I have the responsibility to think about where I'm heading. Also,
though I'm not a huge person, I'm an adult male and can do some damage to
anyone I collide with. I know that once my board starts moving, I can't stop
and I can't turn. When the slope is crawling with people, where am I
supposed to go? I can't just say, "Anyone in my path be damned!" As a
result, most of my trips were very short. Once I picked up a little speed, I
seemed to have no choice but to take a dive in order to stop before I became
a missile.

By the way, is it possible for a snowboard to be too fast, at least for a
beginner? A little more friction would have been welcome. I didn't like the
foot-on-a-banana-peel sensation of zipping away with no control. Since the
sport has no "crutch" -- the hand on the wall for the novice skater,
training wheels or a parent's grip for a new bicyclist, poles for the
beginning skier -- there doesn't seem to be a way to master the balancing
gradually.

On the whole, the experience was like learning to ride a bicycle by going
downhill with no brakes, and with dozens of pedestrians and other riders
crossing in front of you. When we were seated in the shuttle bus headed back
to the parking lot, my son remarked, "Well, that's one thing I never want to
do again. That was horrible."

Anyway, if we do this again -- and I'm not sure we will, given my son's
perspective and my disinclination to go alone -- we'll have to try private
lessons and figure out when there'll be some real open space available for
learning. I'm not sure what to do about equipment. Today's experience
confirms my general view that it's impossible to make progress in anything
with one-size-fits-all rental stuff (I didn't start improving as a skater
until I got my own, well-fitting skates), but it's very expensive and
probably imprudent to buy equipment we may seldom use. I already feel as
though today's $130 was flushed away with little to show for it.

Sorry for the extreme length of this report. If you're still awake, thanks
for reading.

Joe Ramirez









  #15  
Old January 20th 04, 02:57 AM
Joe Ramirez
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Default Our snowboarding misadventure at Seven Springs

"Snowboardripper" wrote in message
om...
The best thing to do is to take another lesson at a smaller friendly
hill. The big mountains are machines that have to serve thousands of
customers the cheapest way possible.


So I've noticed. I went to a large resort because I thought it would have
the best instructors around. The assembly line aspect of the place did not
occur to me.

Take another lesson, but only with you and your son, when there are 4
people in the group it is hard to get the personal attention. This
costs more but if the other 2 people in the group do not pick up fast
you will be stuck learning at there level.


Or, if we don't pick it up fast, they could be stuck learning at our level!
g


Get the equipent in the
morning, practice getting your balance then try some side slipping,
heel then toe side. Now you are warmed up go to your lesson.
Some tips are to wear knee pads and elbow pads, helmet and bike shorts
with padding. When you catch an edge and land on the knee pads you
will be smiling.


Thanks for the tips,

Joe Ramirez


  #16  
Old January 20th 04, 03:00 AM
Joe Ramirez
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Default Our snowboarding misadventure at Seven Springs

"Han Solo (D)" wrote in message
.8...
"Edward Arata" wrote:


Well, and I can promise you: if you take a lesson at a good snowboard
school, you'll learn it in 1 day!

We garuantee our beginners they can drive down a normal hill with
curves/turns in one day. We never had to take that promise back. I am
honest. We had beginners from 6 years to 60 years, they all made it.


Where do you teach?

Joe Ramirez


  #17  
Old January 20th 04, 03:10 AM
Joe Ramirez
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Default Our snowboarding misadventure at Seven Springs

"Dean" wrote in message
...
Joe Ramirez wrote:

To recap, I'm 42, my son is 14, and neither of us had ever snowboarded

before.

My recap: I'm 48. I started boarding last winter, and got in one month of
boarding before the snow melted. I've been going out as often as possible

this
winter and loving it.

You made a couple of mistakes.

1. Going on a weekend. I rarely go out on a weekend. The slopes are too

crowded
with out-of-control kids on weekends. Fortunately my job allows me to take

time
off in 1/2 days, and I've been going out afternoons.


I work M-F, so going on a weekday without taking time off from work would be
very difficult. Most places that offer lessons stop giving them at 5:00 or
6:00 at the latest, or in the afternoon.

Seven Springs' special beginner package is offered Sunday through Friday.
Saturday is the resort's busiest day, so I guess they want to ease the load
a bit by keeping the beginners out. However, for beginners the effect is to
make Sunday super crowded, since it's the only weekend day with the lesson
package.


2. Going under poor snow conditions. Ice isn't easy for anyone.

I have no idea what the hills are like at the place you visited. They

might be
too steep for a beginner.


I don't think Seven Springs' beginner hill is too steep. As for the icy
conditions, it's tough to be too choosy when you're limited, as a practical
matter, to one day a week.

I bought a book. I do not recall the title or author. What I did was

create a
"snowboard simulator" by placing my board on a carpeted floor and hanging

onto
the back of the sofa. I followed the instructions in the book for turning

and
linking turns and overnight I went from body slams to boarding. I also

found a
gentler slope with good snow and a chair lift rather than rope tow, and

avoided
weekends. My skills quickly progressed. I'm now enjoying intermediate to
difficult trails.


This is a very good idea. I get along well with books.

I think the sport needs a simulator to shorten the learning phase. Other

sports
have them.


Or a "crutch," as I mentioned in my first message. It's rare for a balance
sport to have no crutch available for beginners; where would gymnasts be
without their harnesses? Surfers don't have one, but they can move their
feet and land in the water.

Joe Ramirez


  #18  
Old January 20th 04, 03:29 AM
Joe Ramirez
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Default Our snowboarding misadventure at Seven Springs

"ACey" wrote in message
...
"Joe Ramirez" wrote in
:

*Our rental boots & boards used step-in bindings, which
turned out to be invaluable -- not just for getting into the bindings,
but also for getting out of them. I often found that the only way to
get from one place to another on the hill was to pick up the board and
walk.


This might have been a double-edged sword. Sure step-ins are convenient,
but they can also be a bit 'floppy' - I'm guessing that they are the
Rossi/Emory ones with a bar that sticks out either side of the boot?
These are very common on rental boards and really do suck, as they wear
very quickly and once worn are really imprecise.


Yes, that's the kind they were. However, I didn't have a problem with the
bindings. They were easy to use and seemed effective, as least for someone
at my non-level.

From your experience's I guess you won't be too keen on spending more
money on the sport, but if you do decide to persevere (and you should -
it can only get better) really think about getting your own boots. They
needn't be expensive ones, just a pair of basic softboots.


I will definitely have to consider this. Rental stuff is always somewhere
between adequate and bad. It's never good.

Others have already covered this, but it sounds like your teaching
quality wasn't great. After skating the board, the whole learning process
is about side-slipping, first on your toe-edge, then the heel-edge, and
learninh how looking up and making the edge bite into the snow controls
your descent. Then you do the falling leaf - side slipping from side to
side, still using the edge to control speed. Once you've done enough
falling-leaf, you will naturally feel the desire to turn a turn -
probably only one one side. You should never find yourself not in control
or going anything above a quick walking pace.


We never did the falling leaf. I wish we had.


Also, surely the resort should have a beginners area (bunny
slopes we used to call 'em) where anyone not in a lesson isn't allowed.
It makes it a whole load nicer to learn, if only becuase you don't feel
so self conscious!!


We were on the beginners' slope, but the problem was that it was teeming
with beginners! There also seemed to be a lot of skiers "passing through" on
their way to someplace else.

Yup, you had a pretty unfortunate start to your boarding adventure, but
remember the words of Obi Wan "Everytime you strike me down Vader, I'll
come back stronger" (or something to that effect).


I think it was, "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than
you can possibly imagine." (But Lucas never explained why that was so! He
didn't seem like a very powerful ghost to me.) That may be a bit of an
exaggeration in my case. g

Couple of other things:

Maybe try and go away for a long-weekend to learn. It will take more than
a day to start to really feel that you are making progress, and it's
worthwhile having a block of time to do that. Maybe a long weekend in
Whistler - use your US$ to get a good deal


If we went to Canada, I'd probably want to go to Banff/Lake Louise. We
visited that area in the summer ten years ago, and we loved it. But western
North America is too far for a long weekend; travel would take an entire day
each way. I was thinking about the Snowshoe resort in West Virginia, which
is a four-hour drive from here. Anyone been there?

Also, there's a book called "Snowboarding" by Rob Reichenfeld and Anne
Bruechert (ISBN 0873226771), Amazon have it. It's a good introduction and
light on the 'woah, dude' type stuff. I found it really useful to read
through what I'd learnt that day in the bath(!!) after the lesson. It
helps to see the theory behind what you've been trying to learn. It's
also got a good chapter on pre- and post- riding exercises, which do
help. (Also some stuff on equipment, but it's a little dated, although
the basics remain the same.)


Thanks for the recommendation.

Joe Ramirez


  #19  
Old January 20th 04, 03:34 AM
Joe Ramirez
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Default Our snowboarding misadventure at Seven Springs

"Jason Watkins" wrote in message
om...

Rent from a snowboard shop, not the resort. Resort's don't have much
competition pressuring them to carry good rental equipment. With a
shop, you can check out their offerings, and see how helpful the staff
are.


Do all shops rent? We passed some rental shops near Seven Springs, but the
ski/board shops in the Pittsburgh metropolitan area seem to focus on
selling, not renting. Of course, I've never asked. g

As for a lesson, it sounds like that resort has particularly poor
offerings. However, now that you've done the beginner one, you
probibly can come back and get a "next step" lesson that'll be a
smaller group with more focused attention. Or you can find a private
lesson. A friend who already knows how to snowboard or ski might not
be the best teacher, but they can be good encouragement.


There's no way we're ready for the "next step" lesson, since we decisively
failed the first course!

Boards are made to glide, and I'm not sure slowing one down would help
someone learn. The reason you wish it was slower is because your not
sure how to control this thing. Garlands are a great way to get some
confidence: Start out with the board pointed accross the slope. Shift
your weight toward one end of the board so that it starts to point
down the slope (just like falling leaf).


Never did the garland or the falling leaf.

Joe Ramirez


  #20  
Old January 20th 04, 03:49 AM
Joe Ramirez
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Default Our snowboarding misadventure at Seven Springs

"Mike T" wrote in message
...
What went wrong: Just about everything else.


There were lots of good comments from the others -

Yes, the worst is over. It gets better from here, why else would we all
be so fanatical about it? FWIW, aside from the car and laptop
accidents, my first time went pretty much the same as yours. I slammed
down on the ice so many times I could barely move for three days. I
didn't try again till the next season, and it went much better.


Actually, since just about all of my falling was more or less intentional,
as a means of stopping, it didn't really hurt. It was more like sliding.
What was frustrating about the experience was not undue physical discomfort,
but rather the sense that learning was simply not possible in that
environment. When I looked down and saw all those people standing, sitting
or skiing right where I was supposed to practice my non-existent turning
skills, I knew it was hopeless.

Yes, rent from a shop, not the mountain - try on the boots at the shop,
get into the bindings, do whatever you can to make sure your stance is
comfy.

I recall you saying on your 1st thread, weekdays were not an option.
You could rent at a shop the night before, and then get to the mountain
bright and early, before the lifts open. You want to get into the
first lesson of the day, which usually starts just after the lifts open.
The slopes will be less crowded. Beginners don't get to the mountain
early. If you do, you might get the bunny slope to yourself! Also,
group lessons will probably be less crowded early in the AM. Not to
mention, chances are the trail will be freshly groomed.


In a day of wrong things, our timing went wrong too. I had wanted to get to
Seven Springs in time for the first (10:00 AM) snowboarding lesson, but the
roads in our neighborhood hadn't been salted early in the morning, so I
thought it was better to wait. (And the drive was still much more "exciting"
than I would have liked!) However, I thought that we could make the noon
lesson by getting there shortly before 12:00, because I naively believed the
lesson began with equipment selection. Of course, 12:00 meant "on the
mountain and ready to go" at 12:00. So, we had to wait for the 2:00 PM
lesson, and it was jammed.

It sound like your lesson just plain sucked. Call the 7 springs, ask
for the ski school manager, and tell them about it. Depending on what
kind of operation 7 Springs is, you might get some freebies out of it,
like a free lesson and ticket. If you decide to go for the private
lesson, make an appointment at this time, and make it *clear* that you
want the best beginner instructor they've got!


I sent Seven Springs an e-mail with an abridged version of the report I
posted here. No response so far, and I'm really not expecting one.

Joe Ramirez


 




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