glide wax - myth or magic?

"Edgar" wrote in message
oups.com...
In response to your question:

Noel Charonnat, former owner of Sierra Nordic, wrote a web tech article
titled " Understanding Glide Waxing" (Tech Tip #2) that explains
the make-up of glide waxes. Noel wrote:
"The performance of cross country skis is directly and significantly
influenced by the glide wax applied to the bases. Properly waxed skis
will have an enhanced glide that not only allows for faster skiing with
less effort, but also yields skis that turn and descend with increased
control."
See the full article at:
http://www.fwpages.com/home/index.ph..._selection=729


Toko's web site also has technical explanations about what goes into
their glide waxes than most skiers will want to know. See:
http://www.tokous.com/InfoCenter.htm
Toko's Nordic Manual 2005-2006 says:
"The different racing glide wax categories include paraffins,
synthetic waxes/hardeners, molybdenum (or graphite) waxes, fluorinated
waxes, and fluorocarbons. Each has its special properties which offer
advantages in certain conditions and disadvantages in other conditions.

"Paraffins (System3 Waxes) are the waxes of the good old days which
resembled candle wax., except in the Blue range where they are hard and
brittle. Paraffins generally are utility waxes by themselves and are
good for base cleaning, saturating bases with wax, storage and travel
waxing, and preserving the ski bases during training. Pure paraffins
offer no performance edge over the other waxes in their respective
category strengths.

Lastly, you may want to read Noel's explanation why "no-wax" skis
need to be waxes. See Tech Tip #9:
http://www.fwpages.com/home/index.ph..._selection=736


Again, my apologies for not taking your question about paraffin waxes
seriously.

Edgar


No need to apologize! I realize most on this forum take their striding very
seriously (and competitively) and a question like that might seem like a
troll. Most of my skiing - limited by definition as I live in the
mid-atlantic - is marginal snow and along relatively poor trails. Canaan
valley is the exception, where if snow is good, I can actually try to
tele-turn in powder. So I guess i'm a "BC lite" skier. This year I bought
and old pair of Karhu Lookouts (presumably an inexpensive way to tele in the
powder) and a new pair of Pinnacles (new ski for Karhu with a weird shovel
tip and almost straight tail) - both waxless of course. So naturally I was
shopping for waxing tips etc.

I did get out on the Pinnacles this past weekend (8-10" of great new snow!).
So far they are a winner. I hot waxed with paraffin mostly because I didn't
have time to mail-order and there's nothing nearby avail! I also used some
Notwax. In truth, they worked great. Of course compared to my old woodies
there's no comparison! But breaking trail or following my wife, they were
fine. When I get out to Whitegrass later this season (think snow...) I'll
try some perfomance waxes in prepared tracks.

Great links. thanks much...
a

"Edgar" wrote in message
oups.com...
In response to your question:

Noel Charonnat, former owner of Sierra Nordic, wrote a web tech article
titled " Understanding Glide Waxing" (Tech Tip #2) that explains
the make-up of glide waxes. Noel wrote:
"The performance of cross country skis is directly and significantly
influenced by the glide wax applied to the bases. Properly waxed skis
will have an enhanced glide that not only allows for faster skiing with
less effort, but also yields skis that turn and descend with increased
control."
See the full article at:
http://www.fwpages.com/home/index.ph..._selection=729


Toko's web site also has technical explanations about what goes into
their glide waxes than most skiers will want to know. See:
http://www.tokous.com/InfoCenter.htm
Toko's Nordic Manual 2005-2006 says:
"The different racing glide wax categories include paraffins,
synthetic waxes/hardeners, molybdenum (or graphite) waxes, fluorinated
waxes, and fluorocarbons. Each has its special properties which offer
advantages in certain conditions and disadvantages in other conditions.

"Paraffins (System3 Waxes) are the waxes of the good old days which
resembled candle wax., except in the Blue range where they are hard and
brittle. Paraffins generally are utility waxes by themselves and are
good for base cleaning, saturating bases with wax, storage and travel
waxing, and preserving the ski bases during training. Pure paraffins
offer no performance edge over the other waxes in their respective
category strengths.

Lastly, you may want to read Noel's explanation why "no-wax" skis
need to be waxes. See Tech Tip #9:
http://www.fwpages.com/home/index.ph..._selection=736


Again, my apologies for not taking your question about paraffin waxes
seriously.

Edgar


No need to apologize! I realize most on this forum take their striding very
seriously (and competitively) and a question like that might seem like a
troll. Most of my skiing - limited by definition as I live in the
mid-atlantic - is marginal snow and along relatively poor trails. Canaan
valley is the exception, where if snow is good, I can actually try to
tele-turn in powder. So I guess i'm a "BC lite" skier. This year I bought
and old pair of Karhu Lookouts (presumably an inexpensive way to tele in the
powder) and a new pair of Pinnacles (new ski for Karhu with a weird shovel
tip and almost straight tail) - both waxless of course. So naturally I was
shopping for waxing tips etc.

I did get out on the Pinnacles this past weekend (8-10" of great new snow!).
So far they are a winner. I hot waxed with paraffin mostly because I didn't
have time to mail-order and there's nothing nearby avail! I also used some
Notwax. In truth, they worked great. Of course compared to my old woodies
there's no comparison! But breaking trail or following my wife, they were
fine. When I get out to Whitegrass later this season (think snow...) I'll
try some perfomance waxes in prepared tracks.

Great links. thanks much...
a

I don't think anyone really addressed the waxability of no wax skis
satisfactorily in this thread ... not that any of you seriously
considered it i.e.
since you mention basic paraffin rather than high end fluoros. anyway
it "would be a huge waste of money to use high end glide waxes on the
tips and tails (glide zones) of no wax skis and under no circumstances
should you grip wax the kick zones of them. also by their very nature
waxless skis are NOT BUILT to handle the heat necessary to apply the
better glide waxes to them with an iron ... any glide wax you apply
needs to be "corked" in.

I speak from experience; I tried to iron in a base prep wax on a pair
of old waxless skis I had (instead of relying on WD-40 or silicone
sprays which unfortunately don't have good adhesion to the ski and have
to be reapplied often). the result was that the p-tex or whatever it
was on the bottom began to melt ... i.e. what you'll notice is that the
skating race skis and waxable classic skis are made of better quality
graphite and other materials which have the correct heat resistance and
porousity to handle good glide waxes. these types of glide waxes
really only go in well when you iron them in.

in the interest of economy and realistic expectiations for your waxing
dollar all that's really needed for cheap waxless skis is "maxi-glide
maxx-waxx" or lemon pledge if you're really cheap and want to avoid the
icies ...

perhaps if you have a pair of Fischer RCS Waxless which have actually
won a World Cup or two during those crazy transitional temperatures ...
it might be worth it to experiment with some of the more expensive
glide waxes ... to try for better performance.

"Big Z" wrote in message
ups.com...
I don't think anyone really addressed the waxability of no wax skis
satisfactorily in this thread ... not that any of you seriously
considered it i.e.
since you mention basic paraffin rather than high end fluoros. anyway
it "would be a huge waste of money to use high end glide waxes on the
tips and tails (glide zones) of no wax skis and under no circumstances
should you grip wax the kick zones of them. also by their very nature
waxless skis are NOT BUILT to handle the heat necessary to apply the
better glide waxes to them with an iron ... any glide wax you apply
needs to be "corked" in.

I speak from experience; I tried to iron in a base prep wax on a pair
of old waxless skis I had (instead of relying on WD-40 or silicone
sprays which unfortunately don't have good adhesion to the ski and have
to be reapplied often). the result was that the p-tex or whatever it
was on the bottom began to melt ... i.e. what you'll notice is that the
skating race skis and waxable classic skis are made of better quality
graphite and other materials which have the correct heat resistance and
porousity to handle good glide waxes. these types of glide waxes
really only go in well when you iron them in.

I'm new at waxless so YMMV, but I recently waxed 4 sets of skis and had no
problem that I could see. The first 'guinea pig' was an older pair of
Rossignol waxless and the remaining three were all realtively new Karhu BC
type "short and shapely" skis. On all, I followed what I'd read which was
to keep the iron moving at a speed which would leave a trail of melted wax
2-3" long. I used Paraffin, not really because I'm too cheap to buy wax,
but mostly because it was all that was avail on short notice, and I wanted
to test it's use on untracked snow.

Of interest, one of the links suggested to me, mentioned using paraffin wax
for the first wax jobs on new skis
http://www.fwpages.com/home/index.ph..._selection=729 :
"Ski waxes are blends of paraffins (candle-like waxes) and micro-crystalline
and noncrystalline polyethylene (plastic waxes). Paraffin and polyethylene
waxes melt at about the same temperature and blend easily. This is why a
soft paraffin wax used for a ski's first waxing(s) will result in good
absorption - the paraffin wax blends with the residual amorphous
polyethylene left within the gaps as a result of the sintering process."

I'm going to experiment with using paraffin for periodic hot waxing to heep
the bases clean and protected, followed by an iron-on glide wax or maybe a
wipe on before daily outings such as Swix F4.

I may be wrong regarding the temperature/melting issues - is it that the
harder waxes require a significantly higher temperature?

a




in the interest of economy and realistic expectiations for your waxing
dollar all that's really needed for cheap waxless skis is "maxi-glide
maxx-waxx" or lemon pledge if you're really cheap and want to avoid the
icies ...

perhaps if you have a pair of Fischer RCS Waxless which have actually
won a World Cup or two during those crazy transitional temperatures ...
it might be worth it to experiment with some of the more expensive
glide waxes ... to try for better performance.

I think it was more that I had a really cheap pair of waxless skis that
had low quality p-tex or some sort of clear polyethylene bottoms over
the ski. this polyethylene started melting at a low temperature even
when I kept the iron moving. anothter pair of 215 cm. karhu
backcountry skis I had with p-tex bottoms were able to accept hot
waxing but I never really got the high quality performance you'd expect
from this sort of glide waxing. the same glide wax applied to a pair
of old karhu SKATE skis with graphite bottoms gave me a FAST ski; this
wax applied to my karhu backcountry skis gave me a ski that was still
suboptimal for fast downhill xc (crown didn't help) although the glide
wax helped with the icing problem. my experience though was that a
good fluorinated paste wax like MAXX-WAXX was much easier to work with
(no iron needed) and gave better performance since it could also be
applied to the kick zone w/o the potential for damaging it. you really
don't want to risk flattening your crown with a hot iron.

a wrote:
"Big Z" wrote in message


I may be wrong regarding the temperature/melting issues - is it that the
harder waxes require a significantly higher temperature?

a


Harder waxes (for colder snow/air temps, eg. Swix CH4, Toko Blue, Start
Green) require more heat to melt the wax than the softer (warmer, eg
Swix CH10, Toko Yellow) waxes. Swix suggest wax iron temp of 110C for
the yellow CH10 glide wax to wax iron temp of 150C for the green CH4
glide wax. At 150C, you need to be careful to not do damage to the
base or ski structure. One rule of thumb is to touch the base after
you wax and if it feels too hot, you are putting too much heat into the
ski.

I should mention that a good wax iron will hold a stable temperature.
A poor iron will cycle hot to cold and you will need to dial in a high
(hot) peak temp setting to keep the iron melting wax as it travels down
the ski. A good iron minimizes the min-max range so that the hottest
temp is lower than a poor iron while being able to melt the wax.
Quality irons minimize tempearture fluctuation by using thick base
plates to keep the heat uniform and have a good control that cycles the
energy on and off to keep the tempearture in a narrow band range.

Edgar

Z wrote: "this wax applied to my karhu backcountry skis gave me a ski
that was still suboptimal for fast downhill xc (crown didn't help)
although the glide wax helped with the icing problem."

If the Karhu's are "no-waxers" the mechanical grip pattern is probably
the poor glide problem, not the glide waxed tips and tails. While
glide waxing the tips and tails of "no-wax" skis is important for good
glide and for reducing the icing problem, the grip pattern will slow
down the glide. If I recall correctly, Karhu uses a positive grip
pattern, meaning that the grip pattern sticks above the base (above
when the ski is upsidedown on your waxing bench). In contrast, Atomic
and Fisher typically uses a negative pattern where they machine the
base to create the mechanical grip. Karhu also seems to use a longer
grip zone than the usual grip/kick wax zone of a waxable ski. The
bottom line is that the skis are probably gliding poorly because of the
ski, not the glide wax or lack of glide wax.

Edgar

my "crown didn't help" remark is really the bottom line ... so I guess
I was more or less trying to set 'a's expectations realistically as to
what he could expect by waxing "waxless" skis. you could give them the
best CERA F wax that SWIX can produce and you will still have a ski
that will never perform like a waxable ski; the crown is a limiting
factor. for whatever magical reasons grip wax doesn't seem to affect
downhill performance as much. it is the downhill situation when you
want your classic skis to be real gliders.

I guess it is a bit of be careful what you wish for as when I have
waxable classic skis on their enhanced flexibility (camber) makes them
unresponsive skis for downhill anyway. when combined with the good
glide I was getting; I found it was easy to take some good tumbles on
hills that I would manhandle with both good speed and turnability in
skate skis ... while these same hills I would die from boredom on the
waxless skis. I never had trouble with control on downhills with
waxless skis but I also was never able to reach the high speeds I was
able to with the waxable (classic and skate) skis.