What does it take to win the marathon?

On 27 Feb 2006 22:33:30 -0800, "Camilo" wrote:
Why don't running races of similar duration end up
like this so consistently?

Because drafting is less a factor.

JFT

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And because drafting and using the pack is more a factor in ski races,
the whole thing risks being a little less interesting for racers and,
ultimately, spectators. In pro basketball, the back and forth is often
the better team sleepwalking through much of the game, with periods
where they wake up or give a nod to their coach's prodding, and then
turn it on in the final two or three minutes.

Gene


John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:

On 27 Feb 2006 22:33:30 -0800, "Camilo" wrote:
Why don't running races of similar duration end up
like this so consistently?

Because drafting is less a factor.

To Camilo: I think the drafting in skiing seems to be good enough to
help the pack, but not so good for a small group to benefit in a break
the way they do in cycling. This discourages breakaways.

I also think that ski teams cant (or wont) attempt to control a race
like they can in cycling. This may be something that will evolve, I
dont know, its a different mind set altogether from cycling. Again,
this is not conducive to breakaways succeeding.

As far as the basketball analogy is concerned, at least there are lead
changes, changes in the momentum of each team. In WC mass starts, there
is none of this, its just a fast march to a sprint.

You mention handling the charges in skiing, but there really are no
charges in these races, and pretty much everyone knows to conserve
energy until the last few K. To me, there should be more to a mass
start than just timing your sprint. Ill just watch the sprints in that
case. Think of bike racing and the classics like Roubaix, etc. Those
races dont end in pack sprints every year, or else they wouldnt be
classics. (I know, Paris-Tours is an exception :-)

I agree with Shane that watching biathlon is far more exciting than
watching the x-c skiing, and I say that as an avid skier who's never
done biathlon. There are real gaps, and real opportunities suddenly to
gain and lose time. It's a bit like snakes and ladders, without the
ladders. The mass start biathlons were the most exciting sport to watch
in the Olympics, I thought. Having 20 or more skiers shooting more or
less at the same time, and seeing skiers suddenly drop behind because
of missed shots, was amazing. The excellent graphics helped enormously,
being able to see exactly who was shooting what. I was amazed too by
the women's shooting, which seemed better than that of the men. There
was real drama in the biathlon races, not so much in the x-c.

I'm not sure if this question has been addressed befo were the
courses of these games easier than ones in the past? Presumably one way
to produce some spread in the longer races is to make the hills
tougher. It's very hard to tell how tough the hills are just watching
on tv. It didn't seem as though there were any particularly long hills.

Onno

Interesting discussion, thanks. I still am a fan of mass start XC
racing, but I think I understand the draw backs and why they exist
compared to other competative sports.

It may be more enjoyable to watch mass starts live, cos its easier to
see and appreciate the attrition of the field in general.

I really wish they would could bring back the old style pursuit though,
cos it allows the classic skiers to shine a bit. the classic part of
the 30K double is just a formality it seems. and the alternation of the
techniques in the 15 and 50 is a bit much, 30 and 50 i can see, but not
15/50


Camilo wrote:
Interesting discussion, thanks. I still am a fan of mass start XC
racing, but I think I understand the draw backs and why they exist
compared to other competative sports.

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 07:37:41 -0600, Gene Goldenfeld
wrote:

And because drafting and using the pack is more a factor in ski races,
the whole thing risks being a little less interesting for racers and,
ultimately, spectators.

What evidence do you have for that, other than analogie with
basketball?

JT

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Man, I think it's much more interesting to watch an individual start 50
km. You see the split times and who's haulin' ass early, and then you
wonder if they can hang on as their start doggin' at the 42 km check
point. I think it's harder on the athletes because it's hard to drive
yourself and it's much harder to rest in a pack (but it does happen).
I'd think a 50 km individual start would just flood the system with
lactic acid. The race also has some strategy about weather to post slow
or fast early times. Bring back the individual start (and Daehlie,
Mogren, etc....)

Jay Wenner

For the racers, they say it. For the spectators, just a hunch (I use
the word 'risk'). And not just for basketball. Any sport with a
similar dynamic. I mentioned pro football, too, which is often decided
in the last two minutes, if not the last two seconds, by a team that's
done little for most of the preceding 58+ minutes. That gets by because
the fans can party for the preceding three hours and just be mesmerized
by the announcers and camera angles. The problem cross country skiing
has as a TV sport (and for announcers) is that it's repetitive motion
that lasts a long time (vs. alpine skiing). For us, that may be part
of the attraction, but I suspect mass starts are intended by the FIS as
a way to overcome the mass ignorance and boredom factors.

Gene


John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 07:37:41 -0600, Gene Goldenfeld
wrote:

And because drafting and using the pack is more a factor in ski
races, the whole thing risks being a little less interesting for
racers and, ultimately, spectators.

What evidence do you have for that, other than analogie with
basketball?

JT

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Why is it really inevitable that the races come down to the
last few minutes?
An important reason is that the front skier takes the wind AND warms up
the snow in the tracks so that the skiers rigt behind get less wind AND
faster gliding skis (you often see skiers downhil grabing the skiing
pole of the skier ahead of them rather to push up the speed of the
front skier rather than having to brake.

In the olympic 50 k the other Swedish skiers said that if they felt
that they had no chance fighting for the medals but enough power for
it, they would burn their last fuell taking the wind for Anders
S=F6dergren and pushing up the speed, helping him creating a gap to the
others without getting stopped by the headwind and less good gliding
skis, now Fredriksson was straong enough to finish 10th (which is
pretty close to medal in that kind of long-wait-for-sprint-finish race)
and the others weren't strong enough to help Anders pushing up the
speed, but perhaps that the necessary tactics for making an erly gap to
the others in a mass start race like this one (much like in bicycling):
To have one skier who is strong enough to beat the others if he only
could have the same headwind and glide as the others for some 10 km or
so, and some other skiers (just like in bicycling) whose only task is
to take the lead and help this guy creating a gap (thus spoiling their
own hances of skiing fast in the end of the race).

The downside of having the lead was very apparent in the male sprint,
where there was an upphill part, an 180 degree turning point and then
downhill down to the finish, and there was a clear advantage NOT to be
in the lead when the downhill started because then you get more speed
downhill and can start the finish at higher speed, and therefoer in the
finals, the skiers almost stopped at the turnaround point. The winner
Bj=F6rn Lind said in TV afterwards that he had decided before to not
under any circumstances be in the lead when the downhill started and
that if necessary, he would have been standing still waiting 10 minutes
for one of the other skiers to give up and be the first one to ski
downhill if. Now the Italian skier gave after for the pressure, so
nobody had to wait that long.

/ Niklas