Austrian team tortured for nothing

Can anyone point me to a news story with substantial statements by
WADA, the IOC, or Italian authorities that anything specifically
illegal was found. I would think if the Italians were playing
hardball, they'd be displaying evidence like trophies. Why are no
charges being filed?
how'd ya' all like it if the American team was treated this way?
The supposed 'true' story will be released by the authorities long
after the media spotlight has stopped shining on Torino.
Why the witch hunt?
Why the spectacle?
I think the most significant thing is that this happened some 12 hours
before Italy ran away with gold in the relay.
Is state-sanctioned doping going on again, as it was in the former
Soviet-bloc?

The red flare went off when Mayer an Austrian coach had been spotted in
the Austrian's apartment in Torino. This is the same coach who was
banned after Salt Lake. If you don't remember a plastic bag with
transfusion equipment was found in the Austrian Park City, Utah
apartment along with Michail Botwinow's olympic medal papers.
Interestingly just like Salt Lake, Botwinow had difficulty breaking the
the top 30 at WC races all season, but then ends up 3rd at Salt Lake in
the 30KM. and 6th at Torino in the pursuit. Is this guy the best at
peaking for big races, or an artful dodger at avoiding busts? It's
also possible to see a pattern with the Austrian xc skiers staring with
their "break through" performance at the Worlds in Ramsau in 1999. This
is when they beat Norway's dream team in the relay. Just my own opnion.


Stowe-ned wrote:
Can anyone point me to a news story with substantial statements by
WADA, the IOC, or Italian authorities that anything specifically
illegal was found. I would think if the Italians were playing
hardball, they'd be displaying evidence like trophies. Why are no
charges being filed?
how'd ya' all like it if the American team was treated this way?
The supposed 'true' story will be released by the authorities long
after the media spotlight has stopped shining on Torino.
Why the witch hunt?
Why the spectacle?
I think the most significant thing is that this happened some 12 hours
before Italy ran away with gold in the relay.
Is state-sanctioned doping going on again, as it was in the former
Soviet-bloc?

Is state-sanctioned doping going on again, as it was in the former
Soviet-bloc?

It may well be so. For the Olimpics the Italian anti-doping regulation
had to be realxed, to increase the limits, considered to be too low for
the IOC - new law passed just in time.

Marco Torino

i honestly did not know it was that bad. i'm trying to put together a
time-line, you definitely helped me fill in some of the blanks. What
i don't understand is why they haven't come out and said they've found
banned substances. Are the mad scientists concocting stuff that's
untraceable, and if so, what's the need for all the ridiculous,
horror-movie equipment? The whole thing is ghastly. Botwinov is
clearly suspect, did the rest of the team ignore what was going on,
just sit there making coffee while Botvinov is getting transfused? For
better or worse, the carbinieri got involved-and the story certainly
got more interesting because of it!

EPO being detecable, auto-transfusion is back.

This is the reason why there are many "infortunates" who are just a bit
over the hematocrite limit and are put aside for "health" reasons.
There is no banned substance involved.

Auto-transfusion means that you transfuse back your own blood.
This is absolutely undetectable, unless you get caught when
transfusing.
Hence the needs of unattended Police controls.

Put it at 60 and many racers will all be at 59...

wrote:
i honestly did not know it was that bad. i'm trying to put together a
time-line, you definitely helped me fill in some of the blanks. What
i don't understand is why they haven't come out and said they've found
banned substances. Are the mad scientists concocting stuff that's
untraceable, and if so, what's the need for all the ridiculous,
horror-movie equipment? The whole thing is ghastly. Botwinov is
clearly suspect, did the rest of the team ignore what was going on,
just sit there making coffee while Botvinov is getting transfused? For
better or worse, the carbinieri got involved-and the story certainly
got more interesting because of it!

wrote:
EPO being detecable, auto-transfusion is back.

This is the reason why there are many "infortunates" who are just a bit
over the hematocrite limit and are put aside for "health" reasons.
There is no banned substance involved.

Auto-transfusion means that you transfuse back your own blood.
This is absolutely undetectable, unless you get caught when
transfusing.

Yep, though if they've re-transfused it in the last few days before an
event, you might be able to find puncture mark... they should need at
least a 20G size cannula and it would leave a decent hole.

Interestingly, I wonder how many anthletes that employ this method are
aware that (a) in a hyperdynamic circulatory state (i.e. during vigorous
exercise) the optimal rate of oxygen delivery to the tissues per unit
time is found at a haemoglobin concentration of just 110g/L which is
almost certainly less than what they started with _before_ they
transfused themselves, and (b) we have very good evidence these days
that blood that is stored for any length of time (and for these guys
they need to be taking it out a good 10-14 days prior to re-infusing it)
loses a significant proportion of its oxygen-carrying capacity anyway.

It would be interesting and informative to do a study sometime...
comparing the aerobic performance of large groups of very fit people
before & after, or with & without, an autologous transfusion.

Cheers,
Chris

Stowe-ned wrote:

Can anyone point me to a news story with substantial statements by
WADA, the IOC, or Italian authorities that anything specifically
illegal was found. I would think if the Italians were playing
hardball, they'd be displaying evidence like trophies. Why are no
charges being filed?

The IOC stated in a press conference on that none of the austrian
athletes was tested positive to any substance currently listed by the
WADA.
http://www.olympic.org/uk/news/media...p?release=1721

The final results of the investigation by the italian Carabinieri are
still not currently open to the public, but there are lots of rumors
posted by the italian press - one of them already confirmed by autrian
biathlete Wolfgang Perner to the austrian television 'ORF' - material
for injections was found.

how'd ya' all like it if the American team was treated this way?
The supposed 'true' story will be released by the authorities long
after the media spotlight has stopped shining on Torino.
Why the witch hunt?

During Olympic Games in Salt Lake City Mr. Mayer was found guilty by the
International Olympic Comitee for the use of blood manipulation. In a
law-suit between Mr. Mayer and the FIS, the FIS had to withdraw the ban
for him and he was allowed to work as trainer at WC-races but not at
the Olympic Games. So Mr. Mayer visited the Games in Torino as a
private person - but he had the austrian team-dress, appeared on the
official photograph of the austrian nordic team and talked in
interviews. As Mrs. Davies and Mr. Ljunquist (IOC) stated at the first
press conference after the razzia: the main target of it all, was to
get out why and what Mr. Mayer did at the Olympic Games.

I have to admit, that I'm somehow surprised of the stupidity of the
austrian skiing association (ÖSV), which didn't take the best out of
the rules that were signed between the italian jurisprudence and the
IOC: it is quite clear, that the italian law is the currently most
strict in the war on doping in the world. Many athletes wouldn't have
come to the games without having any safety to get out of this country
again (especially NHL players...). The italian jurisprudence agreed
that there won't be any house-searchings (razzias) at the official
olympic village (and as we today know: there haven't been any!). The
austrian crosscountry team hired a private house for the whole games
and this place wasn't 'safe'.

So WADA, IOC and italian carabinieri could show the whole world: we are
doing something against doping and we are watching the steps of persons
who could possibly be in relationship with doping!

Generally I agree that keeping pressure on national teams and athletes
to do 'clean' sports is a good idea, to make it in the middle of the
night before a race (the razzia started at about 10pm local time and
the athletes were released at about 1:30am (after a bus-trip to
Sestriere and being treated like criminals)) is somehow a disadvantage
for the 'engaged' team (this was done in 2 cases/nights before race!).

BTW: during the press conference opening the results of the tests to the
press, Mr. Ljunquist denied the question of a reporter if the
procedures that were performed by the austrians in Salt Lake City
(taking 2ml of venous blood - destroying cellular parts with
ultraviolet light - intramuscular injection) were searched for: "There
is no evidence that these procedures improve performance [...]", but
"[...] it would be banned blood manipulation."


Why the spectacle?
I think the most significant thing is that this happened some 12 hours
before Italy ran away with gold in the relay.

Actually there are some strong rumors, that an 'anonymous person' gave
hints to the IOC and italian carabinieri, but I think the truth will
not appear ...

For those who don't what happened afterwards:
Perner and Rottmann left Italy after the tests and were fired by the
austrian olympic comitee for leaving without permission. Italian
justice wants Perner because of throwing injection material out of the
window during the razzia - the results of the razzia-investigation are
still not published ......
Mayer left Italy too, had a crash after a car chase and (being drunken)
and is facing austrian law for these 2 delicts, currently being at
large but under psychiatric supervision. Fired by autrian skiing
association at the moment the car-chase became public (interview with
autrian television).