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  #11  
Old December 13th 04, 04:04 PM
Jeremy Mortimer
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Ace wrote in
:

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 12:52:39 GMT, Greg Hilton wrote:

The question isn't so much about fit, but about the pros and cons of
touring boots or similar - I know many guides, including some of the
ones that can ski, use touring/mountaneering boots all the time, but
I'm not sure if it'll ruin my skiing.


Ah ok! Your shells are 7 years old, past few years they have been able
to keep lateral stiffness in boots for carving and added soft plastics
in other areas, so maybe modern, step down from race boots would suit
you now?


Some additional info there, ta. Pretty much what I was thinking, but
didn't know about construction changes. Still tempted by some of the
touring-type options, mind.


I missed the beginning of this thread, so sorry if this is irrelevant or
has already been said, but since I ski in touring boots it may be
helpful...

THere's quite a range of possibilities, basically trading weight against
stiffness. I use Scarpa Denalis, which are amongst the stiffest (and
heaviest) randonée boots, and I find not a huge difference in control
from downhill boots. When I got them I thought I'd be using them
occasionally, but I never went back to the downhill boots afterwards.

Pro: obviously, if you want to ski fulltime on a touring setup (I do),
there you go. Plus they are incomparably more comfortable than downhill
boots for walking around, climbing, etc. They're lighter to carry as
well.

Con: a little less control than downhill boots - I found I adjusted in an
hour and never noticed the difference again, but if you're a racer your
experience might differ. You have to be aware that they have Vibram
rather than a flat area on the sole for the AFD (this is less of a
problem as more bindings have a movable AFD), and the toes are too high
for some bindings (a few years ago Salomon Driver were OK, Rossis were
not); these last two points are significant if you rent skis.

Jeremy
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  #12  
Old December 13th 04, 04:36 PM
Ace
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On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 16:04:59 GMT, Jeremy Mortimer
wrote:


I missed the beginning of this thread, so sorry if this is irrelevant or
has already been said, but since I ski in touring boots it may be
helpful...


Indeed it will.

THere's quite a range of possibilities, basically trading weight against
stiffness.


Ah. Interesting.

I use Scarpa Denalis, which are amongst the stiffest (and
heaviest) randonée boots, and I find not a huge difference in control
from downhill boots. When I got them I thought I'd be using them
occasionally, but I never went back to the downhill boots afterwards.


I suspect I may feel the same.

Pro: obviously, if you want to ski fulltime on a touring setup (I do),
there you go. Plus they are incomparably more comfortable than downhill
boots for walking around, climbing, etc. They're lighter to carry as
well.


Sounds good so far. I'm not (yet) doing ski-touring per se, although
last season we did a fair bit of climbing/hiking to get to some of the
best bits of Gressoney, so may be moving in that direction.

Con: a little less control than downhill boots - I found I adjusted in an
hour and never noticed the difference again, but if you're a racer your
experience might differ.


Well I'm currently skiing on Pocket Rockets, so that probably answers
that point ;-)

You have to be aware that they have Vibram
rather than a flat area on the sole for the AFD (this is less of a
problem as more bindings have a movable AFD), and the toes are too high
for some bindings (a few years ago Salomon Driver were OK, Rossis were
not); these last two points are significant if you rent skis.


Also significant if I'm using them with my existing skis. Best make
sure I take them when making a choice. The bindings'll need resetting
and possibly remounting anyway.


--
Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
Ski Club of Great Britain - http://www.skiclub.co.uk
All opinions expressed are personal and in no way represent those of the Ski Club.
  #13  
Old December 13th 04, 05:33 PM
mike
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"Jeremy Mortimer" wrote in message
...
Ace wrote in
:

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 12:52:39 GMT, Greg Hilton wrote:

The question isn't so much about fit, but about the pros and cons of
touring boots or similar - I know many guides, including some of the
ones that can ski, use touring/mountaneering boots all the time, but
I'm not sure if it'll ruin my skiing.

THere's quite a range of possibilities, basically trading weight against
stiffness. I use Scarpa Denalis, which are amongst the stiffest (and
heaviest) randonée boots, and I find not a huge difference in control
from downhill boots. When I got them I thought I'd be using them
occasionally, but I never went back to the downhill boots afterwards.

Pro: obviously, if you want to ski fulltime on a touring setup (I do),
there you go. Plus they are incomparably more comfortable than downhill
boots for walking around, climbing, etc. They're lighter to carry as
well.

Con: a little less control than downhill boots - I found I adjusted in an
hour and never noticed the difference again, but if you're a racer your
experience might differ. You have to be aware that they have Vibram
rather than a flat area on the sole for the AFD (this is less of a
problem as more bindings have a movable AFD), and the toes are too high
for some bindings (a few years ago Salomon Driver were OK, Rossis were
not); these last two points are significant if you rent skis.

Jeremy


I would go along with what Jeremy has said. Last season I obtained Scarpa
Denali XT boots, Atomic R9 skis and Diamir Freeride touring bindings. Skied
a week in Zermatt with only 1 days touring as weather was so unfavourable
(for touring). Basically the touring skis/boots are wonderfully enjoyable,
especially when you have to carry your skis and walk a lot - as in Zermatt -
cablecars etc. I'm very happy with them and I guess I could ski on them
always but I'm no longer gung ho etc and not wanting to go as fast as I can
on say my Atomic SX11s which weigh a ton and are really solid. That's not to
say you can't go fast - just that there must be a bit of loss in technical
performance but I haven't experienced this at all.

As Jeremy says, I think, you can't use a Scarpa touring boot on a downhill
ski binding but could use a downhill skiboot in a Diamir binding - I have.
You must still take care getting a good boot fit + I spent about 2 hours
getting them sorted, including having the plastic pushed out in places and
having foot beds.

HTH, Mike


  #14  
Old December 13th 04, 10:33 PM
Steve Haigh
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Ace wrote:
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 09:08:22 GMT, Greg Hilton wrote:


I'd suggest time in a really decent shop, like Precision in Val D'Isere
or Footworks in Chamonix, they should be able to look at your feet and
discuss the issues and come up with solutions. 3 of us went for new
boots during opening weekend in Val last year. For one guy they didn't
have the boot for him in his size, so they didn't sell him any boots.



Well yeah, that'd be the 'normal' way I'd do things, but next week
we're off to Canada, starting in Bannf, and it seems pointless to take
my old boots out there, given the exchange rate situation, so I'll be
looking to pretty much pre-determine what I want.


They have knowledgable ski-shop staff in Canada too you know:-) I've
never stayed in Banff so I can't give you any advice on specific shops
I'm afraid (r.s.r.n-a might help?). If you were visiting Whistler at any
point I can recommend Snowcovers - several of my friends have bought
boots there, and I've certainly had great service when I've been in.
They offer the same kind of service you'd expect in places like
Precision, except with a weaker currency (but don't forget the sales tax
which is never included in the sticker price)!
  #15  
Old December 14th 04, 08:19 AM
Jeremy Mortimer
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"mike" wrote in
:

"Jeremy Mortimer" wrote in message
...
Con: a little less control than downhill boots - I found I adjusted
in an hour and never noticed the difference again, but if you're a
racer your experience might differ. You have to be aware that they
have Vibram rather than a flat area on the sole for the AFD (this is
less of a problem as more bindings have a movable AFD), and the toes
are too high for some bindings (a few years ago Salomon Driver were
OK, Rossis were not); these last two points are significant if you
rent skis.


....

As Jeremy says, I think, you can't use a Scarpa touring boot on a
downhill ski binding but could use a downhill skiboot in a Diamir
binding - I have. You must still take care getting a good boot fit + I
spent about 2 hours getting them sorted, including having the plastic
pushed out in places and having foot beds.

HTH, Mike


Actually I intended to communicate that you *can* use Scarpa touring boots
in some downhill bindings, though not all. It depends how high the toe
piece will adjust, as the flange on the touring boot is higher than on a
downhill boot.

IME (while testing skis) shop staff will be a bit concerned about the AFD
issue, but only to the extent of making sure you know the risk. This is in
France; their attitude might be different on other continents.

Jeremy
  #16  
Old December 14th 04, 08:29 AM
Ace
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On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 08:19:25 GMT, Jeremy Mortimer
wrote:

"mike" wrote in
:



As Jeremy says, I think, you can't use a Scarpa touring boot on a
downhill ski binding but could use a downhill skiboot in a Diamir
binding - I have.


Actually I intended to communicate that you *can* use Scarpa touring boots
in some downhill bindings, though not all. It depends how high the toe
piece will adjust, as the flange on the touring boot is higher than on a
downhill boot.


Which was my understanding of your comment too. I've skiied with
several guides who do this, plus a few people who use the detachable
touring binding adaptor.

IME (while testing skis) shop staff will be a bit concerned about the AFD
issue, but only to the extent of making sure you know the risk. This is in
France; their attitude might be different on other continents.


I tried to remember, but can't. What's the AFD exactly?

--
Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
Ski Club of Great Britain - http://www.skiclub.co.uk
All opinions expressed are personal and in no way represent those of the Ski Club.
  #17  
Old December 14th 04, 08:33 AM
Ace
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On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 22:33:23 +0000, Steve Haigh
wrote:

Ace wrote:
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 09:08:22 GMT, Greg Hilton wrote:


I'd suggest time in a really decent shop, like Precision in Val D'Isere

snip

Well yeah, that'd be the 'normal' way I'd do things, but next week
we're off to Canada, starting in Bannf, and it seems pointless to take
my old boots out there, given the exchange rate situation, so I'll be
looking to pretty much pre-determine what I want.


They have knowledgable ski-shop staff in Canada too you know:-)


Heh. Who'd have thought it eh? I'm just trying to get an idea first,
hopefully to shorten the decision-making process.

I've
never stayed in Banff so I can't give you any advice on specific shops
I'm afraid (r.s.r.n-a might help?).


s'OK, I've been there before. Monod Sports will probably be the best,
although I've only used their Lake Louise shop, but the Banff one is
probably larger and better.

(but don't forget the sales tax which is never included in the sticker price)!


Yeah, just like in the US.
--
Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
Ski Club of Great Britain - http://www.skiclub.co.uk
All opinions expressed are personal and in no way represent those of the Ski Club.
  #18  
Old December 14th 04, 08:55 AM
Paul Schofield
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"Ace" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 08:19:25 GMT, Jeremy Mortimer
wrote:

"mike" wrote in
:



As Jeremy says, I think, you can't use a Scarpa touring boot on a
downhill ski binding but could use a downhill skiboot in a Diamir
binding - I have.


Actually I intended to communicate that you *can* use Scarpa touring

boots
in some downhill bindings, though not all. It depends how high the toe
piece will adjust, as the flange on the touring boot is higher than on a
downhill boot.


Which was my understanding of your comment too. I've skiied with
several guides who do this, plus a few people who use the detachable
touring binding adaptor.

IME (while testing skis) shop staff will be a bit concerned about the AFD
issue, but only to the extent of making sure you know the risk. This is

in
France; their attitude might be different on other continents.


I tried to remember, but can't. What's the AFD exactly?


And while you're explaining things could someone enlighten me as to what the
dickens you're on about!

Well, you know, just the stuff about touring boots and different bindings.

Cheers

--
Paul Schofield

Time flies like an arrow
Fruit flies like a banana


  #19  
Old December 14th 04, 08:55 AM
David Brown
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I tried to remember, but can't. What's the AFD exactly?

http://www.summitsportsinc.com/onlin...ide.html#Parts


  #20  
Old December 14th 04, 09:19 AM
Jeremy Mortimer
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"Paul Schofield" wrote in
:

"Ace" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 08:19:25 GMT, Jeremy Mortimer
wrote:

"mike" wrote in
:


I tried to remember, but can't. What's the AFD exactly?


And while you're explaining things could someone enlighten me as to
what the dickens you're on about!

Well, you know, just the stuff about touring boots and different
bindings.


AFD is the Anti Friction Device - either a teflon pad or a movable plate
under the front part of the foot that makes it easier for the toe to
rotate out of the toepiece of the binding if it releases. Downhill boots
have a flat area of the sole over the AFD to minimise sticking - touring
boots have a Vibram sole (to maximise sticking!) which means that toe
release may be compromised if your AFD is the teflon pad type.
Increasingly bindings have a movable plate instead, in which case the
Vibram sole isn't a problem.

Touring boots are boots for ski touring (otherwise ski mountaineering,
ski de randonée in French or alpine touring in N. America). They're like
a cross between a ski boot and a mountaineering boot, with a Vibram sole
and adjustments to allow them to be used to walk or climb in, and to lock
the ankle forward to ski. As previously noted they are comfortable and
versatile, but generally less rigid than downhill boots.

Touring bindings allow the heel to be released, pivoting at the toe, when
you're walking uphill on your skis (which requires you to stick climbing
skins on the bottom of the skis. Some lightweight touring bindings are
rather specialised, but others are similar to downhill bindings and will
take any boot (and release in the same way a downhill binding does).

It's increasingly common for people to ski full-time with touring boots
and bindings on downhill skis (there are touring skis too, but they are
rather soft). This is what I do. The equipment is light and comfortable,
and the skins are always in my sack, so at any time if I feel like
climbing something I can. It's a good insurance against route-finding
errors too - it's easy to walk back up.

Jeremy
 




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