T-2s versus T-3s, or are the "bigger boots for bigger skis" adherents too rigid?

Hello:

I ski the black T-3's with Atomic Tour Guide Superlights (now TM:10)
and would like to upgrade my skis to the TM:22s. I'm wondering if to
get full use of the TM:22's, I'd have to plan on upgrading my boots as
well?

I bought the T-3s (never having tele'd before) on the basis of some
comments I read where some thought the push toward heavier boots had
gone too far and might sometimes be unnecessary. Also, I'm used to
skiing mostly on very lightweight ("racing") cross country gear.

The T-3's have been great for me, but as I seek out steeper terrain
and find myself in more varied conditions, there are certain
conditions when I just have trouble making the skis work--I guess I'm
assuming it's the skis, not the boots. I'd be very interested to hear
others experiences?

thanks, Jon

Big stiff boots make challenging down hill snow easier. There is no denying
it. I use first generation T1's (purple tongue) with thermolite liners.
These babies are lighter than your T3's I believe. So I guess I fall
somewhere in the middle. If it's pure downhill performance you're after...
have you considered AT for the descent days and your current rig for
touring?

The question you have to answer is... how much of a weight compromise are
you willing to make?

Buy the skis. Use the T3's and see what you think. Then rent a pair of T2's.

T2's with thermolite liners are pretty much in the league of T3's weight
wise aren't they? I can't remember, but I don't remember T3's being all that
light.

DMT

[ ]

I ski the black T-3's with Atomic Tour Guide Superlights (now TM:10)
and would like to upgrade my skis to the TM:22s. I'm wondering if to
get full use of the TM:22's, I'd have to plan on upgrading my boots as
well?

Bigger boots give more power and control. Better technique can
substitute and may give a better feeling, but how much of your time do
you want to spend practicing? I'd rather use bigger boots as a means
to ski steeper stuff. I went from early T2 (green) to black T1 last
season and haven't looked back, I even used the T1s for last Easter's
mountain trip (hiking for turns in Jotunheimen).

Of course, bigger boots are generally heavier and worse for trekking,
and you lose some feeling with the snow. Anyway it's a compromise
based on what you want to ski.


Martin
--
"An ideal world is left as an exercise to the reader."
-Paul Graham, On Lisp

Dingus Milktoast wrote:


T2's with thermolite liners are pretty much in the league of T3's weight
wise aren't they? I can't remember, but I don't remember T3's being all that
light.

I don't see that big difference between T2 and T3, weight wise. But the
T2 is way way stiffer in the lower part - while it is still very
comfortable in the upper part. A nearly perfect (and very light)
allround teleboot.

You can use, in my experience, the T2 also to ski fat skis. Only
disadvantage: it's a "cold" boot. Some inner sole to isolate wouldn't
that bad.

Greetings,

Ulrich


--
reply to: uhausmannATbluemailDOTch

Thanks, helpful observations.

In fact, after I did this post I checked out the weights and this
year's T-2's weigh the same as the older T-3's, so flex has become the
only differentiator.

I was starting to think of an AT setup as a better way to segregate
what I have available. A guide I spoke with had an interesting
observation about weight v. downhill performance--he thinks you expend
less energy than you think going up (even with heavy skis and boots)
and more energy than you think going down if your struggling with an
unstable setup and falling all the time, etc.



...
Big stiff boots make challenging down hill snow easier. There is no denying
it. I use first generation T1's (purple tongue) with thermolite liners.
These babies are lighter than your T3's I believe. So I guess I fall
somewhere in the middle. If it's pure downhill performance you're after...
have you considered AT for the descent days and your current rig for
touring?

The question you have to answer is... how much of a weight compromise are
you willing to make?

Buy the skis. Use the T3's and see what you think. Then rent a pair of T2's.

T2's with thermolite liners are pretty much in the league of T3's weight
wise aren't they? I can't remember, but I don't remember T3's being all that
light.

DMT

Jon wrote:

I was starting to think of an AT setup as a better way to segregate
what I have available. A guide I spoke with had an interesting
observation about weight v. downhill performance--he thinks you expend
less energy than you think going up (even with heavy skis and boots)
and more energy than you think going down if your struggling with an
unstable setup and falling all the time, etc.

Sure, that's up to you. But using for example this kind of thing:
http://www.martin-eckart.gmxhome.de/
going uphill with teleequipment is a joke.

Downhill is, obviously, a technical problem. Sure, when you're pretty
stable in fixed heel mode and unstable in free heel mode, you'll spend a
lot of energy. As you will do the other way around, if you're a better
freeheeler (thank alpine skier).

Greetings,

Ulrich



--
reply to: uhausmannATbluemailDOTch

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In article ,
Jon wrote:
Hello:

I ski the black T-3's with Atomic Tour Guide Superlights (now TM:10)
and would like to upgrade my skis to the TM:22s. I'm wondering if to
get full use of the TM:22's, I'd have to plan on upgrading my boots as
well?

_ Are you sure about the TM:22's? While they are a great ski for
hard conditions, there are better skis for variable crud. What
kind of conditions exactly are you having difficulties with and
where do you ski?


I bought the T-3s (never having tele'd before) on the basis of some
comments I read where some thought the push toward heavier boots had
gone too far and might sometimes be unnecessary. Also, I'm used to
skiing mostly on very lightweight ("racing") cross country gear.

The T-3's have been great for me, but as I seek out steeper terrain
and find myself in more varied conditions, there are certain
conditions when I just have trouble making the skis work--I guess I'm
assuming it's the skis, not the boots. I'd be very interested to hear
others experiences?


_ What bindings are you using? There are lot's of people
experimenting with using T3's with beefier bindings like
the Hammerhead or Bishop Telebomber.

_ In my experience, stiffer boots will help in varied conditions,
but skis and bindings make a bigger difference. In some sense
all 3 need to balance out, but I think it's a much better idea
to put light boots on beefier skis than beefy boots on
light skis. The better your technique, the lighter boot
you can get away with.

_ I'd definitely try it first and see what happens. BTW, a fair
part of what makes beefy boots a bear to climb in is not the
extra weight, but the extra effort required to flex them and the
bindings. Pair a stiff boot with an "active" binding and it's a
fair bit of work just to bend your foot. Kind of depressing to
think about all that work you're putting into heating up plastic
and springs. This is one place where AT setups have a clear
advantage over most tele setups.

_ Booker C. Bense


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So is there somewhere a website with an *illustrated* glossary or FAQ
that clarifies the ever more subtle distinctions between the ever
expanding equipment-jargon terminology? (tele, randonee, AT, downhill,
cross-country, back-country, etc, etc)

[ lac.stanford.edu ]

_ I'd definitely try it first and see what happens. BTW, a fair
part of what makes beefy boots a bear to climb in is not the
extra weight, but the extra effort required to flex them and the
bindings. Pair a stiff boot with an "active" binding and it's a
fair bit of work just to bend your foot. Kind of depressing to
think about all that work you're putting into heating up plastic
and springs. This is one place where AT setups have a clear
advantage over most tele setups.

Is it really that much of a problem if you have good heel lifters? I
have last year's Cobra with double lifters (two heights), and I cannot
say I've thought of bending my T1's as that tiring when climbing. I
notice it more on the flats.


Martin
--
"An ideal world is left as an exercise to the reader."
-Paul Graham, On Lisp

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In article ,
Martin Thornquist wrote:
[ lac.stanford.edu ]

_ I'd definitely try it first and see what happens. BTW, a fair
part of what makes beefy boots a bear to climb in is not the
extra weight, but the extra effort required to flex them and the
bindings. Pair a stiff boot with an "active" binding and it's a
fair bit of work just to bend your foot. Kind of depressing to
think about all that work you're putting into heating up plastic
and springs. This is one place where AT setups have a clear
advantage over most tele setups.

Is it really that much of a problem if you have good heel lifters? I
have last year's Cobra with double lifters (two heights), and I cannot
say I've thought of bending my T1's as that tiring when climbing. I
notice it more on the flats.


_ Try climbing with a pair of AT bindings. There's nothing like
seeing for yourself. Or get the Silvretta Easy-go. Heel lifters
help, but you still have to flex the toe of the boot and compress
the springs on the binding. I have an old ('97) pair of T1's and
one of the first pair of T-Races made ( Really stiff). The weight
difference between them is not that big, particularly since I
use the T-Race liner in the T1's. However, I get worked when
climbing in the T-Race's with Superloops set up fairly stiff.
When I switched to a less active binding[1], I noticed a big
difference in the percieved effort to climb with my T-Races.
This could all be in my head, I'm sure there is a placebo
effect with new gear[2]. But hey, 90% of the game is what
you think in your head anyway. If you think it will make you
ski better, then probably it will....

_ Booker C. Bense



[1]- Telebomber

[2]- I spent money so it must be better, right?


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