Skating over set tracks - what to do?

I would like to tap into the collective expertise of this group to get
some solutions to a problem, one that I haven't seen covered very
much (yes, I checked the archives!).

I have been skate skiing on the Nordic trails at Eldora, just west of
Boulder, Colorado for many years. They have a chalk board where the
Meadows and Phoebe loop trails intersect, and someone left a message
that I had seen befo "Skaters - please don't ski over the set
tracks." I'd certainly like to oblige, but most of the trails at
Eldora are narrow, and level stretches are rare; it's all on the side
of a mountain between about 9,300 and 10,000 feet. At that elevation,
glide is extremely important.

As a 6-foot tall skater, having the ski tips encroach on the set tracks
is often unavoidable. That chalk message made me feel guilty. I
really don't want to go over them, because my outside ski tip is then
pushing against some air instead of snow. But there are trails where I
can lay one ski perpendicular to the lane and have the tip and tail of
that ski hanging into the set tracks on both sides. If I'm climbing
uphill with a wider stance, that simply isn't enough room.

This leaves me with some questions. Since I don't use classic skis,
I'd like to know why the tracks must be in a pristine condition, and
what happens when they are not. Most skate marks seem to cut through
the tops of the set tracks, but not all the way to the bottom where the
ski bases make contact. Heaven knows the skate lanes are usually not
uniformly packed or level, much as I'd like them to be! I deal with
other skier's ruts and grooves, holes from straying snowshoe users,
windblown conifer limbs and cones, and groomer imperfections all the
time.

Why do groomers place the set tracks so close together, especially in
areas where it looks like they could go closer to the trail edges? Is
it something about the machinery? And, for my own education, why are
there set tracks on both sides of a trail in some places, then just one
set on the right further along the trail, then one on the left, etc?
And if they are on both sides and skaters have no choice but to
encroach, which is worse for classic skiers, encroachment on a
predominantly uphill set of tracks or the downhill ones?

Better understanding can only lead to greater courtesy and
consideration of others! What's a skater to do? Opinions please!

Chris

wrote:

This leaves me with some questions. Since I don't use classic skis,
I'd like to know why the tracks must be in a pristine condition, and
what happens when they are not. Most skate marks seem to cut through

Going uphill on tracks that have been damaged by a skater is _not_ fun,
the small lumps of snow can make a marginal grip situation totally
untenable. :-(

Better understanding can only lead to greater courtesy and
consideration of others! What's a skater to do? Opinions please!

Learn classic or ski some other trails?

Terje

--
-
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"

Going uphill on tracks that have been damaged by a skater is _not_ fun,
the small lumps of snow can make a marginal grip situation totally
untenable. :-(



Terje has it in a nutshell there. When the hill gets steeper the classic
track condition dictates whethere or not you will make it up the hill
without slipping and possibly even falling. A large (or small) piece of
debris of snow or interruption in the surface of the classic track is the
problem. We need perfect grip to make it up !! If your skating marks do
not dump snow into the classic track, no problem. If they do, problem.
Classic purists are really bothered by this - personally i've slipped and
fallen down - not fun.

Skating on a rougher surface up hills does not ever cause a skater to
fall.... (I'm a skater and classic skier and used to wonder what all the
fuss was from the classic nuts too - now i am one ! )

Hope that helps.

Here where I am we have different problems - walkers, dogs, smokers, and
snowshoers. I'd gladly contend with an occasional skating mark over the
classic tracks rather than some idiot walking their 100 pound labrador
retriever right in a groomed track while smoking and pulling a sled full of
kids. Nearly got a fist fight over it last weekend. Anyone have any
suggestions for solving the "walker" problems ??

JK

Terje Mathisen wrote:

wrote:


This leaves me with some questions. Since I don't use classic skis,
I'd like to know why the tracks must be in a pristine condition, and
what happens when they are not. Most skate marks seem to cut through



Going uphill on tracks that have been damaged by a skater is _not_ fun,
the small lumps of snow can make a marginal grip situation totally
untenable. :-(


agree absolutely

Better understanding can only lead to greater courtesy and
consideration of others!

skating over the set tracks is not either of the above

What's a skater to do? Opinions please!



Learn classic or ski some other trails?


agree absolutely

Terje

Terje & all:

I'll disagree somewhat with the "find another trail" suggestion. If a
person is skating on a trail that is intended for both skating & classic,
then he is totally within his rights to do what he needs to to get up a
hill. If that means skating across the tracks then unfortunately that is
his right. If he is skating on a classic only track, then he should get off
the trail. With all that said though, I also think it's appropriate for the
skater to do what he can to avoid the tracks whenever possible. That's just
good skiing citizenship. As an aside, I've seen way too many times
herringbone tracks cutting the tracks also when they could have been
avoided. Bad classic citizenship there!

I personally always try to keep off the groomed track when skating but
sometimes it can't be helped especially, as Chris has pointed out, when the
track grooming brings the tracks too close together. That drives me nuts.
I look at the tracks & wonder what the groomer was thinking when he laid
them out.

MOO,
Matt

"Terje Mathisen" wrote in message
...
wrote:

This leaves me with some questions. Since I don't use classic skis,
I'd like to know why the tracks must be in a pristine condition, and
what happens when they are not. Most skate marks seem to cut through

Going uphill on tracks that have been damaged by a skater is _not_ fun,
the small lumps of snow can make a marginal grip situation totally
untenable. :-(

Better understanding can only lead to greater courtesy and
consideration of others! What's a skater to do? Opinions please!

Learn classic or ski some other trails?

Terje

--
-
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"

Try your best to not ski on the classic tracks and if it is not
possible, do not worry about it. Classic skiers can always get out of
the tracks and ski up the hills or deal with the marks.

When the classic tracks are groomed so close together that it is not
possible to skate without touching the tracks, then there is no
etiquette involved. The classic skier with the problem should contact
groomers and see if it is possible to not groom tracks on one side of
the trail or widen the trail thus giving skaters and classic skiers
that herringbone the room they need to make it up the hill without
disturbing the classic tracks.

Stephen

Hi Chris_Po. I'm another Chris that skis Eldora and loves the pain of
it. I'd have to agree with xcwhite, especially in the case of Eldora
where the skaters outnumber the the classic skiers by a good margin and
the trails are steep narrow. There is just no way to stay out of some
of them. Even if you made a principaled stand to stay out of them,
the other 200 skaters would not and I'm afraid it would become more of
a futile gesture. I's say that almost all the skaters make an attempt
to stay out of the tracks is possible.

Regards.
Chris

wrote:
This leaves me with some questions. Since I don't use classic skis,
I'd like to know why the tracks must be in a pristine condition, and
what happens when they are not. Most skate marks seem to cut through
the tops of the set tracks, but not all the way to the bottom where the
ski bases make contact.

I agree with others here. Lumps of snow in the track makes for tough
classic skiing.

Why do groomers place the set tracks so close together, especially in
areas where it looks like they could go closer to the trail edges?

Tracks cannot be set right up to the edge of a trail because room is
needed at the edge for pole plants. When skating first came about many
ski areas moved he tracks too close to the edge. The snow there is
often softer and it left no room for poling. West Yellowstone puts the
set track 3 feet in from the edge making for perfect conditions.

And, for my own education, why are
there set tracks on both sides of a trail in some places, then just one
set on the right further along the trail, then one on the left, etc?
And if they are on both sides and skaters have no choice but to
encroach

When there are two sets of tracks close together you have no choice.
You must ski over them. On trail systems with two way trails there are
often two sets of tracks, one on each side. A ski area operator needs
to consider when trails are two-way whether the traffic requires those
two sets of tracks. If the traffic is light and vision good around
corners, perhaps one set will do.

Ski area operators often change which side the track is on. If the
grooming machine can set on either side some terrain factor like hills
or curves might decide a left or right side track. Some groomers,
however, only have one track setter. The side the track is on is then
deterined by which way the groomer drives the machine along a
particular section of trail.

If a snowmobile is pulling a grooming device with a track setter off to
one side, the groomer has to groom in both directions to have a set
track on each side of the trail. In my experience, snomobiles don't
always go exactly where pointed and the grooming machine may not follow
exactly in the path of the snomobile and that may cause tracks to be
too close together.

It really seems like your trails are just too narrow to readily
accommodate two set tracks and a skating lane. They may even be too
narrow for one track and a skating lane. In the first case setting only
one track may work out, In the second case there are four options:
1) groom only for skating,
2) allow only classic skiing,
3) expect skiers ti compromise on trails conditions and allow both
skating and classic tracks,
4) widen the trails.

These are all difficult decisions.

Ralph's Nordic Web
http://www.ernordic.com/ralph.htm

I'm a vocally militant classical skier, yet recognize there is often
not enough room for skaters and that management or groomers need to
know about. But how many of us say anything? Often, uphills are just
wide enough to skate and without tips crossing a track (V1), but you
have to be perfectly placed to accomplish it, and that's impossible to
control skate to skate and skier after skier. I'm not sure whether or
not skier height per se is a factor, so much as length of skis and
skier ability (control, length of glide). As one sees in the Birkie
(wide trail, lots of people), better skiers thru about wave 3 stay out
of the tracks and even help police the few careless ones. The biggest
problem typically is on the steeper sectons where the V1s get wider and
skier ability is pushed to the limit and beyond. Narrower sections are
another matter, where tracks don't have much chance.

Gene

"Ralphs Nordic Web" wrote:

When there are two sets of tracks close together you have no choice.
You must ski over them. On trail systems with two way trails there are
often two sets of tracks, one on each side. A ski area operator needs
to consider when trails are two-way whether the traffic requires those
two sets of tracks. If the traffic is light and vision good around
corners, perhaps one set will do.

Ski area operators often change which side the track is on. If the
grooming machine can set on either side some terrain factor like hills
or curves might decide a left or right side track. Some groomers,
however, only have one track setter. The side the track is on is then
deterined by which way the groomer drives the machine along a
particular section of trail.

If a snowmobile is pulling a grooming device with a track setter off
to one side, the groomer has to groom in both directions to have a set
track on each side of the trail. In my experience, snomobiles don't
always go exactly where pointed and the grooming machine may not
follow exactly in the path of the snomobile and that may cause tracks
to be too close together.

It really seems like your trails are just too narrow to readily
accommodate two set tracks and a skating lane. They may even be too
narrow for one track and a skating lane. In the first case setting
only one track may work out, In the second case there are four
options:
1) groom only for skating,
2) allow only classic skiing,
3) expect skiers ti compromise on trails conditions and allow both
skating and classic tracks,
4) widen the trails.

These are all difficult decisions.

Ralph's Nordic Web
http://www.ernordic.com/ralph.htm

A lot of good advice, but of course I have some comments (mostly
redundant!).

First - this is my recurring "rant" - take up classic skiing as well as
skating. I still can't understand skate-only skiers. But this has
nothing to do with your problem, it's just my preaching 8-).

I think all you can do, and all any reasonable classic skier should
expect, is that you take reasonable care to avoid the striding tracks
whenever possible. Thats' all you can do, do your best, and feel
confident that you're being a good trail user. They should quit
whining (to you anyway).

You, as well as the classic skiers should talk to the management about
the problem. It isn't your (a skater) problem. You have every right
to ski there (assuming it's multi use, and not striding only). If it
is impossible to avoid encroaching on the tracks, that's the way it is.
Really, when it comes right down to it, it's the classic skiers'
problem and they need to talk to the management to see if the trail can
be improved to avoid the tracks getting messed up.

I'd suggest that when you see the note on the chalk board, add a note
of your own - politely stating that you're doing your best, but the
trails are not adequate for both techniques and that the classic skiers
need to do something about it. It is harming their skiing, not yours.
I don't mean this to sound selfish - I'm a classic skier first and a
skater second - but my opinon is that this is just the reality of the
situation: skate skiing is not ruined by inadequate trails, but classic
skiing can be. They (classic skiers) are trying to focus blame on
skaters, when the blame is trail design, geography, grooming strategy
or all of these.