new board time?

Hi folks,
Just finished up a great season, my 4th with a Salomon Fastback 163.
I've been riding for about 6 years, and reasonably advanced. I've been
toying with the idea of getting a new board over the summer - mostly
to replace my Fastback, but also a nice complement to it for some
variety.

The Fastback is a beast, and I can roast down the mountain without
worrying about my edges holding or any tricky ice. I love it. However,
I've been trying to do more tricks out on the mountain and park (just
jumps, not many rails), and the Fastback feels a bit unwieldy at
times.

The issue for me, I think, is stiffness. When I bought the board, I
was told to get a stiff board for freeriding. However, when I watch
Afterlame or Saturation, I see these pros on the big mountains with
boards that seem a lot less stiff than my Fastback. They can lean back
on their tails while on flat ground, which I cannot do at all. Ok,
they are pros, but my point is that perhaps I don't need a board as
stiff as the Fastback for the powder that I am riding.

I am 6'2" 165lbs, so the choice of length isn't straightforward. I had
thought Burton Custom 158, Custom X 156, and Salomon Forecast Era 159.

Has anyone had experience of shifting from a long, stiff board like
the Fastback into something shorter with more flex - but still riding
the same pow? Any thoughts on the boards I have mentioned?

Thanks!
Yup

I've ridden a Burton Custom for years. During that time, I've demo'd
boards like the T6 and Custom X, both of which are stiffer. I'm a
freerider that just does an occasional jump. The thing I've
consistently noticed is that the Custom is more forgiving on the
mountain, particularly on flat trails with little pitch. It likes to
lay flat with out being as sensitive to catching an edge. I've also
noticed this in doing sharp turns on somewhat bumpy snow. The Custom
doesn't chatter/bounce, while the stiffer board is more prone to having
the edge bounce and blow out on you. The stiffer boards seem better in
maybe holding on ice. The one thing clear to me is for riding down
groomed trails, I prefer the Custom, which is slightly more flexible.

Yup wrote:
Hi folks,
Just finished up a great season, my 4th with a Salomon Fastback 163.
I've been riding for about 6 years, and reasonably advanced. I've
been
toying with the idea of getting a new board over the summer - mostly
to replace my Fastback, but also a nice complement to it for some
variety.

The Fastback is a beast, and I can roast down the mountain without
worrying about my edges holding or any tricky ice. I love it.
However,
I've been trying to do more tricks out on the mountain and park (just
jumps, not many rails), and the Fastback feels a bit unwieldy at
times.

The issue for me, I think, is stiffness. When I bought the board, I
was told to get a stiff board for freeriding. However, when I watch
Afterlame or Saturation, I see these pros on the big mountains with
boards that seem a lot less stiff than my Fastback. They can lean
back
on their tails while on flat ground, which I cannot do at all. Ok,
they are pros, but my point is that perhaps I don't need a board as
stiff as the Fastback for the powder that I am riding.

Hi, I was in a similar situation a couple of years ago... I was riding
a Salomon 450 154cm (which I believe is the ancestor to the current
Prospect) for a couple of years and it was a great all-mountain board -
stiff enough to let you carve, soft enough to let you do jumps. Then I
switched to the Salomon Definition 156cm which like the Fastback is a
very stiff freeride board (but a little less taper I think). It had
tremendous edgehold and was incredibly damp and I could carve fast and
blast through crud without even noticing it. However, it felt unwieldy
at slower speeds and particularly going through trees, park and pipe. I
just assumed that I somehow just got worse in freestyle, until I
switched back to my old 450 did I realize it was the super-stiff flex
of the Salomon Definition that was the cause.

I am 6'2" 165lbs, so the choice of length isn't straightforward. I
had
thought Burton Custom 158, Custom X 156, and Salomon Forecast Era
159.

Has anyone had experience of shifting from a long, stiff board like
the Fastback into something shorter with more flex - but still riding
the same pow? Any thoughts on the boards I have mentioned?

As for flexing your board I think you are partially correct that you
need a board you need to be able to easily flex at your weight and
ability level. There are boards the my friend who are 200 lbs will find
soft that I will find very stiff and hard to manuever at 150 lbs. Also
as you get better, you will learn how to handle longer, stiffer boards.
I recently picked up an alpine board the is 170 and stiffer than your
Fastback and while it does have some limitations... I am confidant
enough on it do straight airs in the park and the pipe (a few weeks
ago, I managed to get enough guts to take it above the lip of a 18 ft
quarterpipe and it was fine). I often ride the very stiff 170 on the
groomers in the morning and then switch to my medium stiff 155 to ride
the park in the afternoons... it takes a run or two to get use to the
change as suddenly you feel like you are riding a floppy lunchtray, but
you learn to compensate.

Longer boards tend to be stiffer and have more effective edge (more
edgehold) and I agree with the other poster that getting too stiff a
board can limit your riding style as the board will feel unwieldy and
heavy at slower speeds. I don't agree with his claim that stiffer
boards chatter and tend to blow out an edge more. All things else
remaining equal, a stiffer board will be a lot more stable at higher
speeds because it flexes less when you hit ruts and bumps... a softer
board will deform it and overflex and then snapback, causing you to
blowout your edge. Now in addition to stiffness there is a lively vs
dampness quality to flex as well. A damp board (like Salomons) and you
will be able to blast through and carve choppy snow/crud without having
to really use your legs shock absorbers, a side effect is that at
slowers speeds, the boards will feel a little dead/dull under you.
Lively boards (like Burton) tend to have a lot of pop in then, letting
you be very dynamic in your riding without you having to put a lot of
energy into it, but tend to chatter and bounce in the chop at high
speed. For both types of boards, a better board builder can maximize
the benefits while minimizing the inherent drawbacks. Burton boards
also have much shorter sidecut radii and have a softer flex between the
bindings than other boards in general, while Salomon is the opposite...
I probably mentioned a lot of terms you aren't used to... let's just
say there are a lot of subtle aspects to the way a board rides.

Personally... out of those three I would prefer the Salomon Forecast
Era 159 as a general replacement with a bit of overlap. The Burton
Custom 158 is a decent board - but it is a bit soft and not very damp
(it be more lively and have more pop off the tail) such that it will
feel completely different from your Fastback - it *would* make a great
a complement to it though if you think you Fastback has some life in
it. I bet the Custom X 156 is fun too, but it is expensive (maybe if
you can get it for 50% off) and it won't float nearly as well as your
163. I can suggest a few other more "obscure" board brands as well if
you are interested.

In reference to the videos you saw, as your surmised, pros are riding
relatively softer freestye/all-mountain freestyle boards which I've
found to be also kind of limited... great if you want to hit every
little drop and kicker on the mountain, and okay in the trees/power,
but a little boring and nervous on fast groomed trails. A long time
ago, I saw my friend Blake (http://tinypic.com/4sh55g) flex his Salomon
450 in ways I thought were not possible with my 450. He taught me that
you shouldn't try to pull the board up with your leg (your thigh
muscle) instead keep your leg straight and use it like a rope and pull
with your core (hips/torso) and it is much easier - in general you
should be using your core for power and your other muscles as secondary
adjusters. A few years later I had a friend asking me the exact same
question "how do you flex the board like that?" Here is a shot of me
also on a Salomon 450 http://tinypic.com/4sh6dl. Now granted the 450 is
softer than your Fastback, but it isn't a soft board by any stretch of
the imagination and I was able to flex my Definition (just not as
much). From this you can draw that either you can learn how to flex
your board more as you get better (and stronger) or... that the
Prospect might be a good choice for you :]

Thanks a lot for your reply. I appreciate it. Always good to get a
detailed discussion on this issue - other posts I've read and
"snowboard length size charts" that litter the net don't help much.

Personally... out of those three I would prefer the Salomon Forecast
Era 159 as a general replacement with a bit of overlap. The Burton
Custom 158 [snip] *would* make a great
a complement to it though if you think you Fastback has some life in
it. I bet the Custom X 156 is fun too, but [snip] it won't float
nearly as well as your 163.

My Fastback has plenty of life in it I think, and I certainly want to
get as much out of it in future. My aim is to buy a board that will
give some variety that I can't get out of the old one - but not be too
different that I'm not happy to take it on deep pow days. I will be
going to Banff next season, and want to take both boards on the trip
with me to compare.

Of the three boards I mentioned, I am most drawn to the Custom 158 -
mostly because its flex will be a contrast to the Fastback, and it's
not as short as the Custom X.

However, my scope isn't just limited to these two brands - by all
means, please make some alternative recommendations. I actually almost
bid on a Capita The Unorthodox on Ebay the other day! Was going for
$275 and the dual fishtail design intruiges me.

Regarding flexing the board - I tried in vain for ages to do that with
the Fastback. No go. The thing will just not budge. I have a feeling,
though that I'm just not heavy enough. Not a big deal, but perhaps it
does indicate that the Fastback isn't actually that well suited to my
weight.

wrote:

My Fastback has plenty of life in it I think, and I certainly want to
get as much out of it in future. My aim is to buy a board that will
give some variety that I can't get out of the old one - but not be
too
different that I'm not happy to take it on deep pow days. I will be
going to Banff next season, and want to take both boards on the trip
with me to compare.

Of the three boards I mentioned, I am most drawn to the Custom 158 -
mostly because its flex will be a contrast to the Fastback, and it's
not as short as the Custom X.

Yea, the Custom 158 should definitely give you some decent float and
will feel a lot more playful while still being pretty versatile in
general. Two of my friends have these and really like them, but they
(my friends) are more park-oriented in general. All the boards you are
looking at (Custom 158, Custom X 156, Forecast ERA 159) are going to be
noticeably different from your current board and a lot of fun, so you
can't really make a wrong choice in my opinion.

However, my scope isn't just limited to these two brands - by all
means, please make some alternative recommendations. I actually
almost
bid on a Capita The Unorthodox on Ebay the other day! Was going for
$275 and the dual fishtail design intruiges me.

Mmm... I'm kind of iffy on the double swallowtail. The advertising is
like "we put TWO for double the... uh swallowtail fun-ness" without
ever explaining WHY you would ever want two swallowtails. From my
understanding of swallowtails, the gap takes out a bit of the surface
area of the tail, letting the board sink in the rear making it easier
to ride powder with the "fins" giving extra steering. Also, the
flexible fins let the board ride shorter for its surface area allowing
you to turn quicker. First, the Capita swallowtail is way too small to
give much help in powder (this is what a real swallowtail looks like -
http://www.priorsnowboards.com/boards_powstick.php). Even the Osin 4807
isn't a true swallowtail for some people (http://tinyurl.com/7z6qn)
because it doesn't have all the beneficial aspects of a ST (although
it's a great board in its own right). Second adding one to the front
kind of *kills* the point of a swallowtail the whole idea is to shift
weight/balance of a the board. I've actually seen a Capita Unorthodox
Limited (the green and black one) in real life, a freestyle instructor
was riding a limited edition on (he was like 6'3" 190 so the board was
short for him). I wasn't particularly impressed by it. Maybe it was
because he wasn't actually noticeably better than me in his spins or
getting air out of the pipe.

To start off, I am in no way affliated with Donek Snowboards. I get no
incentive to plug their boards aside from the fact that I think they
are *awesome* and they have essentially no advertising and depend on
word of mouth to sell their boards. Personally I have been very
enamoured b my the Donek Phoenix 155. It is the best all-mountain board
I have ridden to date (although I've only ridden/demoed about two dozen
total, so that isn't very many). It carves extremely well - almost as
good as the Donek Incline, which is better than the Fastback for
carving, much worse in powder. It floats in powder very nicely - not as
good as the Burton Fish (dedicated powder board) but good enough for
nearly all general powder needs. It's easy to negotiate in the trees
and best of all (for me) is awesome in the park. I've done rails, 360s,
big air, pipe with it... and it is very good at all of them. The 165 is
very close to your Fastback 163 in specifications, but will be less
stiff and much more playful/lively under your with similar amount of
float. It will be a little less damp though, meaning on choppy/sloppy
snow you will feel more jolting and you will need to shock absorb with
your legs. I bet you could ride the 160 and have a lot of fun on it too
(would be equivalent to a slightly longer/stiffer Custom 158, but with
better edgehold and more float). The main drawback of Donek boards is
that you will be hard pressed to find it selling for less than its $475
retail price since the company is very small and tends to make the
board when you order it (compared to Burton boards which cost a lot
retail, but always go for like over 40% off after the season ends). The
BIG plus side is that you can try out the Donek boards before buying.
They have a *free* demo program where they ship you the board that you
want to try (if they have a demo available), you ride it for a few days
to see if you like it. You do have to pay to have it waxed (you can do
that yourself) and shipped back to them (should be $15+20=$35 for a
couple days worth of demoing). Also, if within 30-days you decide you
don't like the board, you can ship it back to them and they will refund
you your money and the cost of shipping. Check them out at
www.donek.com, if you look up the number on the website and call them
you will talk to the owner/board master Sean Martin. I think you will
really enjoy the Phoenix, and have no reservations recommending it
especially because of how easy it is to "test drive" one and decide for
yourself.

The other obscure board you should check out is the Rad-Air Tanker
(http://www.rad-air.com/). I keep hearing people just go on and on
about these boards and they sound like a lot of fun. The shortest model
is the 162 which still seems long for me as I don't like longer boards
for trees/park in general and I'm only 5'8" 150 lbs. Many of guys keep
talking about the 182 or 200 cm which they say is still extremely
nimble despite the extra length - I'm somewhat doubtful as how well
they ride in the park, but I did see one guy (sponsored by Rad-Air)
pull off some nose/tail rolls (flexing the board so he was just on the
nose/tail) and switch carving on a 182cm!!! Obviously he is a strong,
expert rider... but a 182?!? Here's a link to the video that has a few
clips of him riding (it is labeled incorrectly as a Burton Tanker).
This is a link to a personal website so it will go away eventually
(http://derf.dyndns.org/~derf/snowboard/ver1.wmv). The rider has talked
a bit about the boards it recently on freecarve.com, you can go there
and read his posts (I just posted myself asking him a few questions
about the Tankers) and perhaps pose some of your own questions. Since
I've never ridden a Rad-Air tanker myself, I can't directly vouch for
them... but I have tried another board the same guy (PSR) recommended
(the Madd 170) and it was everything he said it would be in terms of
feel/characteristics. So I'm very inclined to believe what he says
about the Tankers (taking into account that we have different personal
preferences).

These are the boards I would suggest you look at it you want something
a little "out of the ordinary" like the Capita Unorthodox you were
mentioning. You will probably have a paid more though... the Prior
snowboards are really nice too... very damp (smooth and cushy ride like
being in a luxury car) but again expensive in my opinion... *although*
they do have used/demos boards for so-so prices - check out the MFR 158
and a 162
at(http://www.priorsnowboards.com/used_....php?BSTY_ID=6). I've
personally demo'd a 158 and it was a fun, easy turning, silky smooth
ride with still very good edgehold. I was super stable and forgiving on
landings in the park, although it felt a tiny bit long to me, but I'm
used to 155cm boards (having moved up from 152cm in the last decade). I
would not go for the AMFs, their freestle model despite what they say,
for me they are too tight/nervous to be fun on steep trails.

Again, these are just some rather obscure board suggestions if you are
feeling adventurous in purchasing your next board. I think all of the
boards we've talked about are great boards you will have fun on all of
them. Which you will enjoy the most? Well that's really a personal
preference and you would probably have to actually ride them to find
out. Beware that you do not become a board collector (it is a trap that
I have be lured into by others - I personally hate the term "quiver"),
but I guess it is cheaper than collecting motorcycles or cars. You can
see that I go on and on about the boards... but there are several
people worse than me!

Regarding flexing the board - I tried in vain for ages to do that
with
the Fastback. No go. The thing will just not budge. I have a feeling,
though that I'm just not heavy enough. Not a big deal, but perhaps it
does indicate that the Fastback isn't actually that well suited to my
weight.

No, even for you slightly lighter weight, I think your Fastback 163 is
well-suited for you to do what it was designed to do (big-mountain
carving and powder). If it won't budge at all you haven't learned how
to flex the board properly while standing still (it isn't a particular
useful skill outside of freestyle). I can even flex my 170 a tiny bit
if I lean properly (in the way that I mentioned) although I can't flex
it that high off the ground and I'm only 150 lbs. At 165 lbs, you are
the right height... but perhaps like 10-15 pounds lighter than optimal.
Since flexing the board like I mention only uses your "upper body" the
difference drops to around 4-7 pound difference. The fact of the matter
is that the Fastback isn't a flexy freestyle board and so you won't be
able to flex it much, but you should still be able to get the high end
off the the ground a little bit.

--Arvin

On 30 Apr 2005 03:15:39 -0700, (Yup) wrote:

I am 6'2" 165lbs, so the choice of length isn't straightforward. I had
thought Burton Custom 158, Custom X 156, and Salomon Forecast Era 159.

Definitely give the ERA (not Forecast) a try. I'm 5'8", 165 this year,
and the ERA 158 was a total blast the 2 or 3 times I tried it. I think
I will buy one between now and next season. The Forecast is probably
very good, too, with maybe a bit less pop.

-- Robert

Hi folks, just wanted to revisit an old thread. I've been doing some
more browsing of Salomon and Burton boards on eBay, and looking at my
options and prices. So far my list is:
1. Burton Custom 158
2. Salomon Forecast Era 159
3. Salomon DB Era 159
4. Salomon Era 158

However, I've started thinking that perhaps I should add the Prospect
to the list, given the good reviews I've seen (and a recommendation
from lonerider):

much). From this you can draw that either you can learn how to flex
your board more as you get better (and stronger) or... that the
Prospect might be a good choice for you :]

The price seems good too. Any thoughts on this board? I wasn't sure if
it was too much of a park board, as it appears to be more freestyle
than the other Salomons I have listed above. I would still like to take
it in powder, but I feel I need something less unwieldy for the park
than my Fastback 163. Is the Prospect ok on fast groomed slopes?

Any recommendations of size? 157 or 160? I'm 6'2" and 165lbs - so a bit
lightweight.

Also, anybody have any experience buying snowboards off-season on eBay?
Is it worth waiting until June?

Thanks!