Zermatt Grooming Problem

"Nick Hounsome" wrote in message
k...


It's a false economy to cut back on pisting. Most of the money in the
business comes from the fresh hordes of beginners.



Given the financial state of most ski-lift companies they just don't have
money to invest. And the hotel owners I know are not happy bunnies at all
given the current weather and change in climate. If you can save then save -
that's the motto.

To say it's bad is being honest.
--
Simon Brown
www.hb9drv.ch

On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 21:25:26 +0000, Sue wrote:

Bumps are caused by skiing, right? They're the piles of snow people
throw up when they turn. If they make neat regular turns, they form
identical piles of snow in a regular pattern; if they hack about at
random the heaps are all shapes and sizes and there's no pattern at all.
Once the bumps exist, people tend to ski round them so the pattern is
maintained. You could get a regular pattern by starting with the
year's first snowfall and skiing up the bumps carefully yourself, or
more economically by leading a ski-school conga line over them a few
dozen times.

Indeed, just came back from Lenzerheide and at the end of the day
there yesterday most of the popular pistes had spots that were
practically mini mogul-fields (typically at the top and on the steeper
sections).

People tend to turn in the same places and this builds up mounds of
snow around the turn points. Once the mounds build, most people ski
around them thus making the mounds even more pronounced.


Gav

Gav wrote:

On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 21:25:26 +0000, Sue wrote:


Bumps are caused by skiing, right? They're the piles of snow people
throw up when they turn. If they make neat regular turns, they form
identical piles of snow in a regular pattern; if they hack about at
random the heaps are all shapes and sizes and there's no pattern at all.
Once the bumps exist, people tend to ski round them so the pattern is
maintained. You could get a regular pattern by starting with the
year's first snowfall and skiing up the bumps carefully yourself, or
more economically by leading a ski-school conga line over them a few
dozen times.


Indeed, just came back from Lenzerheide and at the end of the day
there yesterday most of the popular pistes had spots that were
practically mini mogul-fields (typically at the top and on the steeper
sections).

People tend to turn in the same places and this builds up mounds of
snow around the turn points. Once the mounds build, most people ski
around them thus making the mounds even more pronounced.


Yes, that is exactly how mogul fields appear. But the idea that a ski
instructor can lead a group in precise formation to keep them even is
just bobbins.

For a start you can't lead a group like that, they never turn in the
same place. Sure, the ski school swot just behind the intructor will
turn in the same place as the leader, everyone else will just turn when
they can (esp. on a crowded slope) and the guys at the back will be
lucky if they even se where the instructor turned anyway. [my tip for
getting the most out of lesson is to make sure you are that swot by the way]

Even if this supposed regime existed the efforts would be totally wiped
out by the vast majority of none ski-school skiers who will be out in
swarms on any soft snow after a storm.

Moguls just appear where they appear and no one decides where to put
them, apart from the competion courses I mentioned which are hand made
with shovels and a lot of sweat. The more gently the slope the more even
the moguls, that's just how it is. On steep slopes the moguls develop
deep ravines because skiers stop carving and side slip down the downhill
sides. Also, steep fields tend to develop "goat tracks" where skiers
traverse across the field to try and descend without making to many
turns. On gentle slopes skiers ski with more confiences and make better
turns hence leave more even and less rutted bumps.

The pattern of bumps will remain as they are, but getting bigger
(actually getting deeper ruts) until either they get pisted over or you
get a "bottomless" dump of snow where the underlying pattern is not felt
by the skiers. This doesn't need to be as deep as you might imagine as
the ruts get filled in very quickly in a storm. A dump on a couple of
meters over a couple of days can happen (ahhh.. if only it would happen
on Jan 21st in Les Carroz.....) and will obliterate all but the most
heineous of bumps.

In message , Steve Haigh
writes
Gav wrote:

Bumps are caused by skiing, right? They're the piles of snow people
throw up when they turn. If they make neat regular turns, they form
identical piles of snow in a regular pattern; if they hack about at
random the heaps are all shapes and sizes and there's no pattern at all.
Once the bumps exist, people tend to ski round them so the pattern is
maintained. You could get a regular pattern by starting with the
year's first snowfall and skiing up the bumps carefully yourself, or
more economically by leading a ski-school conga line over them a few
dozen times.
Indeed, just came back from Lenzerheide and at the end of the day
there yesterday most of the popular pistes had spots that were
practically mini mogul-fields (typically at the top and on the steeper
sections).
People tend to turn in the same places and this builds up mounds
of
snow around the turn points. Once the mounds build, most people ski
around them thus making the mounds even more pronounced.


For a start you can't lead a group like that, they never turn in the
same place. Sure, the ski school swot just behind the intructor will
turn in the same place as the leader, everyone else will just turn when
they can (esp. on a crowded slope)

The crowds tend to avoid pronounced bumps if they have an alternative,
which in this case they had.

and the guys at the back will be lucky if they even se where the
instructor turned anyway. [my tip for getting the most out of lesson is
to make sure you are that swot by the way]

Conscientious instructors make you take turns, as they know the least
confident of the class tend to lag at the back!

Even if this supposed regime existed the efforts would be totally wiped
out by the vast majority of none ski-school skiers who will be out in
swarms on any soft snow after a storm.

I sort of lose interest in bumps when there's fresh snow to fall into.
Meanwhile the ski school would still take its booked class there.

Moguls just appear where they appear and no one decides where to put
them, apart from the competion courses I mentioned which are hand made
with shovels and a lot of sweat.

You can get a machine now. I'm told the prototype made really neat
moguls but arranged them in rows down and across the slope, not
diagonally - that must've been weird to ski on!

The more gently the slope the more even the moguls, that's just how it
is.

I haven't found that. As I said earlier, I've seen lovely regular bumps
on blue and even green pistes and completely chaotic ones on a black.

On steep slopes the moguls develop deep ravines because skiers stop
carving and side slip down the downhill sides. Also, steep fields tend
to develop "goat tracks" where skiers traverse across the field to try
and descend without making to many turns. On gentle slopes skiers ski
with more confiences and make better turns hence leave more even and
less rutted bumps.

But on gentle slopes you get beginners skiing with just as little
confidence.
Suppose you had two identical blue runs, one connecting major lift
stations, the other isolated on a hillock with its own lift. You'd
never get bumps on the first, because a large part of the traffic would
be transport skiers shooting straight down it.
The second would be a nice quiet spot for beginners to practice their
turns without fast skiers going past them, and if the snow's at all
soft, that sort of piste has a fine crop of bumps by lunchtime.

The pattern of bumps will remain as they are, but getting bigger
(actually getting deeper ruts)

Too true. Those deep ruts defeat me - I don't know if I'm just
intimidated by them, but most probably my technique's lacking.

until either they get pisted over or you get a "bottomless" dump of
snow where the underlying pattern is not felt by the skiers. This
doesn't need to be as deep as you might imagine as the ruts get filled
in very quickly in a storm. A dump on a couple of meters over a couple
of days can happen (ahhh.. if only it would happen on Jan 21st in Les
Carroz.....) and will obliterate all but the most heineous of bumps.

I'm with that, so long as the Tarentaise gets its share.

--
Sue ]

"Gav" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 21:25:26 +0000, Sue wrote:

People tend to turn in the same places and this builds up mounds of
snow around the turn points. Once the mounds build, most people ski
around them thus making the mounds even more pronounced.

But why? I can't be the only person who thinks that it is easier to turn on
the bumps rather than around them (at least when they are small and
especially on flatter pistes).

"Nick Hounsome" wrote in message
k...

"Gav" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 21:25:26 +0000, Sue wrote:

People tend to turn in the same places and this builds up mounds of
snow around the turn points. Once the mounds build, most people ski
around them thus making the mounds even more pronounced.

But why? I can't be the only person who thinks that it is easier to turn
on
the bumps rather than around them (at least when they are small and
especially on flatter pistes).



The 'correct' procedure - requires less energy and is easier to control.
--
Simon Brown
www.hb9drv.ch

On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 23:47:05 +0000, Sue wrote:

In message , Steve Haigh
writes
Gav wrote:

Bumps are caused by skiing, right?

People tend to turn in the same places and this builds up mounds of
snow around the turn points. Once the mounds build, most people ski
around them thus making the mounds even more pronounced.


For a start you can't lead a group like that, they never turn in the
same place. Sure, the ski school swot just behind the intructor will
turn in the same place as the leader, everyone else will just turn when
they can (esp. on a crowded slope)

More impportantly, even if they can, and do, ski exactly the same
line, the snow will move under their skis, so the nice regular
sine-wave bump will slowly turn into one with a near-vertical cliff on
the downslope. Good skiers doing it properly will make this process
take a lot longer, but happen it will.

The crowds tend to avoid pronounced bumps if they have an alternative,
which in this case they had.

A big if, in some cases. Even then, there's loads of wannabees that
will choose the bumps either because they think they can ski them or,
as you say is your case, they'd like to be able to.

and the guys at the back will be lucky if they even se where the
instructor turned anyway. [my tip for getting the most out of lesson is
to make sure you are that swot by the way]

Conscientious instructors make you take turns, as they know the least
confident of the class tend to lag at the back!

But even with the best of groups, each student will at best ski on a
line within a few cm of the one in front. Once you've got to the
eightth in line, the line he's following may be up to a metre away
from the instructor's.

Moguls just appear where they appear and no one decides where to put
them, apart from the competion courses I mentioned which are hand made
with shovels and a lot of sweat.

You can get a machine now. I'm told the prototype made really neat
moguls but arranged them in rows down and across the slope, not
diagonally - that must've been weird to ski on!

Yeah, I did a run like that in Soldeu last year, they put a nice
sine-wave shaped pattern about 1.5m wide down the hill, then put a
second one next to it, 180deg out of phase, so when they're fresh you
just have vertical walls between them. Nice.

The more gently the slope the more even the moguls, that's just how it
is.

I haven't found that. As I said earlier, I've seen lovely regular bumps
on blue and even green pistes and completely chaotic ones on a black.

That's what he's saying, I think. On flatter runs it's easier for
everyone to ski a nice line, so the bumps tend to form much more
regular patterns. On the steep stuff most people can't stick to the
pattern so they get chopped up very quickly.

On steep slopes the moguls develop deep ravines because skiers stop
carving and side slip down the downhill sides.

True, but also exaggerated by the movement of snow across the top of
the mogul, as I mentioned above.

The pattern of bumps will remain as they are, but getting bigger
(actually getting deeper ruts)

The pattern will change as well, IME, as people fail to negotiate the
nice tight lines and push the proto-moguls together in places and
apart in others. Of course, if you're talking about solid blocks of
ice this won't happen, but the softer the snow, the more movement and
reshaping you'll get.

Too true. Those deep ruts defeat me - I don't know if I'm just
intimidated by them, but most probably my technique's lacking.

Heh. Some of each, I don't doubt. The key thing, I find, is to not try
and ski a particular technique on moguls, but just like everywher
else, be able to instantly vary the type of turn you're using for each
one. Easier said than done, of course, which is why a large part of it
is also the ability to quickly recover when you get knocked off line
and adjust your speed/route accordingly.

Sometimes it works, sometime it doesn't work quite so well :-}
--
Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
Ski Club of Great Britain - http://www.skiclub.co.uk
All opinions expressed are personal and in no way represent those of the Ski Club.

On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 09:12:28 +0100, "Simon Brown"
wrote:

"Nick Hounsome" wrote in message
. uk...

But why? I can't be the only person who thinks that it is easier to turn
on
the bumps rather than around them (at least when they are small and
especially on flatter pistes).

The 'correct' procedure - requires less energy and is easier to control.

Rubbish. There's no single 'correct' procedure. True, many old-school
skiers tend to turn on the tops and slide down them, mainly because
that's the way they ski on-piste too, and it can work quite well until
the down-side gets too steep. But if you look at anybody skiing bumps
fast and fluidly, you'll see their skis following the "zip-line" all
the way down.

--
Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
Ski Club of Great Britain - http://www.skiclub.co.uk
All opinions expressed are personal and in no way represent those of the Ski Club.

Sue wrote:
[...]
Pistebumps are the urban wildlife of landforms, I love 'em so much that
one day I'll learn how to ski them properly!

Bumps are caused by skiing, right? They're the piles of snow people
throw up when they turn.

If they make neat regular turns, they form
identical piles of snow in a regular pattern; if they hack about at
random the heaps are all shapes and sizes and there's no pattern at all.
Once the bumps exist, people tend to ski round them so the pattern is
maintained. You could get a regular pattern by starting with the
year's first snowfall and skiing up the bumps carefully yourself, or
more economically by leading a ski-school conga line over them a few
dozen times.
[...]


I might have misunderstood your description but .... moguls are
formed by the depression which the ski edge digs in the snow when you
turn, not by the build-up of carved-out snow. Since it is easier to
turn by letting the skis drop over a drop to un-weight the skis, the
next pair of skis digs the depression deeper. Steep moguls and moguls
at crucial turn-points sometimes have vertical faces, and in warm
weather, there always seems to be rock just where you cannot see it,
where the face has been worn back to the mountain.

Skiing off the upside slope of a mogul in motorcycle wall-of-death
style is hard on the quadriceps, which means skiers turn on the top
after mounting this face, or turn on the drop-away side.

In message , Ace
writes

The more gently the slope the more even the moguls, that's just how it
is.

I haven't found that. As I said earlier, I've seen lovely regular bumps
on blue and even green pistes and completely chaotic ones on a black.

That's what he's saying, I think. On flatter runs it's easier for
everyone to ski a nice line, so the bumps tend to form much more
regular patterns. On the steep stuff most people can't stick to the
pattern so they get chopped up very quickly.

Duh - yes, he was. I still don't agree, as I've also seen chaotic bumps
on blue runs (especially resort runs - I love those too!) and really
beautiful patterns on black and expert runs. I badly wanted a picture
of a bump run off the Rothorn, with its long narrow ones sloping down
the gully sides and blending into normal ones in mid-gully.

On steep slopes the moguls develop deep ravines because skiers stop
carving and side slip down the downhill sides.

Which makes the downhill sides too steep to sideslip. Theory would
suggest that the bump becomes fixed in one place when that happens, at
least until the next fall of snow.

Which looks like being about mid-March! I'll be able to study some very
mature bumps in a couple of weeks' time.

--
Sue ]