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XC ski center: viable business?



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 3rd 09, 02:16 AM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
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Posts: 327
Default XC ski center: viable business?

As a spin-off of the thread on Salmon Hills, purely out of curiosity,
- is running a XC ski center a viable business model at all? What %
of XC ski start-ups make it through the first ~5 years? The 2 places
I've skied at (and love skiing at) that on the surface looked like
successful businesses are Royal Gorge, CA (which rumors say was
supposed to have been sold to a housing developer had it not been for
the current housing crisis) and Lapland Lake, NY.
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  #2  
Old December 3rd 09, 03:07 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
jeff potter
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Posts: 191
Default XC ski center: viable business?

On Dec 2, 9:16*pm, "
wrote:
As a spin-off of the thread on Salmon Hills, purely out of curiosity,
- is running a XC ski center a viable *business model at all?


Viable at what level?

To pay taxes? a part-time worker? a mortgage? a whole income? for one
person or more?

I'd think you'd want to diversify/multiply the income streams from the
property. ...If 'most income' is your goal. But more cashflow doesn't
always bring optimized profit! Ya gotta watch out for "dealing in
cattle to buy your shoelaces." !!!

If you want to do more than just (hopefully) pay part-timers during
the winter, and if you want more security than prayers for snow
brings, then I'd think you'd need profitable activities occurring on
the land year-round and in diverse ways during the snow-season.

But, again, you could totally minimize operations to do just some one
aspect: like offer cleared trails on a concession to public access
land and have a feed-tube and day-pass membership system. That's your
baseline income option, right? Don't even offer parking, a warming hut
or grooming! You'd then need roadside parking options or parking that
would be available somehow (a lot for hikers/hunters is already
cleared nearby, say). The next steps up are to provide parking and a
warming hut / restroom and/or groomed trails. Then groomed trails of
various skill-levels, then trails in the two modes. Then rentals,
classes and someone one-site. Then fancier grooming... The limitless
sky is coming up!

Options for seasonal and supplemental income streams:

*3D archery range -- and hosting events/competitions
*mt-bike trails -- again, hosting events
*cyclocross course! -- hosting...
*old-timey sleigh rides, wagon-rides, horse-back trails -- dinners out
on the trails (this is what the Breck Nordic Center does or used to do
-- during the ski season)
*day and NIGHT skiing, of course
*snow-making loop
*cafe / restaurant / day-lodge food
*B&B / lodge / cabins
*river thru property for fishing, canoe put-in ops
*retail ski shop and year-round sport shop
*bike, canoe, ski (etc) rentals
*lessons / clinics / demo-days
*sponsor clubs and teams -- in all activities done on site

--JP
oyb

  #3  
Old December 3rd 09, 03:32 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
jeff potter
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Posts: 191
Default XC ski center: viable business?

On Dec 3, 10:07*am, jeff potter wrote:
On Dec 2, 9:16*pm, "
wrote:

As a spin-off of the thread on Salmon Hills, purely out of curiosity,
- is running a XC ski center a viable *business model at all?


Viable at what level?

To pay taxes? a part-time worker? a mortgage? a whole income? for one
person or more?

I'd think you'd want to diversify/multiply the income streams from the
property. ...If 'most income' is your goal. But more cashflow doesn't
always bring optimized profit! Ya gotta watch out for "dealing in
cattle to buy your shoelaces." !!!

If you want to do more than just (hopefully) pay part-timers during
the winter, and if you want more security than prayers for snow
brings, then I'd think you'd need profitable activities occurring on
the land year-round and in diverse ways during the snow-season.

But, again, you could totally minimize operations to do just some one
aspect: like offer cleared trails on a concession to public access
land and have a feed-tube and day-pass membership system. That's your
baseline income option, right? Don't even offer parking, a warming hut
or grooming! You'd then need roadside parking options or parking that
would be available somehow (a lot for hikers/hunters is already
cleared nearby, say). The next steps up are to provide parking and a
warming hut / restroom and/or groomed trails. Then groomed trails of
various skill-levels, then trails in the two modes. Then rentals,
classes and someone one-site. Then fancier grooming... The limitless
sky is coming up!

Options for seasonal *and supplemental income streams:

*3D archery range -- and hosting events/competitions
*mt-bike trails -- again, hosting events
*cyclocross course! -- hosting...
*old-timey sleigh rides, wagon-rides, horse-back trails -- dinners out
on the trails (this is what the Breck Nordic Center does or used to do
-- during the ski season)
*day and NIGHT skiing, of course
*snow-making loop
*cafe / restaurant / day-lodge food
*B&B / lodge / cabins
*river thru property for fishing, canoe put-in ops
*retail ski shop and year-round sport shop
*bike, canoe, ski (etc) rentals
*lessons / clinics / demo-days
*sponsor clubs and teams -- in all activities done on site


PS...

*tubing hill
*tobaggan run
*sled hill
*ski lifts of some types perhaps
*in addition to having a river run thru it --- have some big hills on
it so the BC and snowboard types can have their fun --- add a rope tow
--- more limitless sky (for projects) opening up in this direction,
again depending on goals
*ice rink (plow a pond?) for skating, hockey, speed-skating --
rentals, leagues

The more craziness attempted the more the owner should be very handy
with engines, plumbing, welding, in addition to business and
marketing... Keeping costs down is key. Then again some places opt for
the "assemble a great team" approach. Still, teams fall apart and the
owner should be jack of all. I worked at Breck Nordic Center a season
and Gene Dayton certainly jumped into everything a mile a
minute. ...Marketing, politics, plumbing, grooming...

The XC Ski HQ in Roscommon, run by Bob Frye, is a center that seems to
keep going strong and is darn diverse in many of the ways I list. With
Bob you can add "cook" to the list -- and he even has packaged and
sold hot-sauces on the side. His land/trails are kinda flat -- pretty
and forested but flat and kinda uniform -- 10 km of similar terrain --
accessed across a busy road -- yet he makes it hop and it's certainly
a dandy resort to visit. His daylodge, patio, shop and cafe are a
great place to take a break. He's on the razor edge of the snowbelt.
He's close for the downstaters. He has snow-making for a 1km loop. His
snow seems darn reliable for his location. He's an hour closer to
metro areas than most resorts. So his actual land isn't the best in
terms of a "location," but its location is! He's hospitable, offering
many amenities. He promotes a club-skier atmosphere with a big
emphasis on kids, juniors, high school programs (do youngsters really
need challenging terrain?). If he had a river, hills and a really big
hill for BCer's...wow...

--JP

  #4  
Old December 3rd 09, 03:36 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Lew Lasher[_2_]
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Posts: 12
Default XC ski center: viable business?

I started a discussion topic in XCSkiForum a couple of years ago about
the economics of cross-country ski areas. In general, cross-country
skiing doesn't seem to be a big money-maker. Most cross-country ski
areas in North America are either associated with another business
(often a downhill ski area or a lodging business) or are government-
subsidized.

The recent example of the Windblown ski touring center in New
Hampshire illustrates the financial challenges facing cross-country
skiing. As I understand the plans of the non-profit organization that
seeks to buy Windblown, they expect the cross-country skiing
operations to essentially break even. But, to acquire the touring
center, they need to raise a substantial amount of capital
(approximately $2 million). (Part of the money is for capital
improvements such as snowmaking, but the majority is just to buy up
the land.)

It's hard to see how a free-standing cross-country ski area can be
viable in a capitalist economy, if it requires a tremendous capital
investment and does not make a profit large enough to justify that
investment.
  #5  
Old December 3rd 09, 05:36 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
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Posts: 572
Default XC ski center: viable business?

Jean MacInness seems to make a very decent go of a standalone center
with Bohart Ranch in Bozeman. While I don't know all the ins and outs
of it, on the surface things that have helped a lot there are
- half and/or full-day school programs daily from early January into
March;
- having a part-owning son who does most of the grooming year around,
presumably at reduced wages and with benefits coming from his other
job or work;
- big money from organizations for meets, such as NCAA, SuperTour,
etc.

Gene

P.S. Jean is about 70 and I've heard that she'd like to sell the
operation, though I'm not sure if she's actively pursued it.


On Thu, 3 Dec 2009 07:36:34 -0800 (PST)
Lew Lasher wrote:

I started a discussion topic in XCSkiForum a couple of years ago about
the economics of cross-country ski areas. In general, cross-country
skiing doesn't seem to be a big money-maker. Most cross-country ski
areas in North America are either associated with another business
(often a downhill ski area or a lodging business) or are government-
subsidized.

The recent example of the Windblown ski touring center in New
Hampshire illustrates the financial challenges facing cross-country
skiing. As I understand the plans of the non-profit organization that
seeks to buy Windblown, they expect the cross-country skiing
operations to essentially break even. But, to acquire the touring
center, they need to raise a substantial amount of capital
(approximately $2 million). (Part of the money is for capital
improvements such as snowmaking, but the majority is just to buy up
the land.)

It's hard to see how a free-standing cross-country ski area can be
viable in a capitalist economy, if it requires a tremendous capital
investment and does not make a profit large enough to justify that
investment.

  #6  
Old December 3rd 09, 06:40 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
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Posts: 4
Default XC ski center: viable business?

Von Trapp Family Lodge appears to do VERY well as an XC ski resort.
Well, at least they started as an XC ski resort - now they have golf
and high-end condos. At least on the surface it seems to be a
profitable business.
  #7  
Old December 3rd 09, 07:41 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Bob
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Posts: 73
Default XC ski center: viable business?

wrote:
As a spin-off of the thread on Salmon Hills, purely out of curiosity,
- is running a XC ski center a viable business model at all? What %
of XC ski start-ups make it through the first ~5 years? The 2 places
I've skied at (and love skiing at) that on the surface looked like
successful businesses are Royal Gorge, CA (which rumors say was
supposed to have been sold to a housing developer had it not been for
the current housing crisis) and Lapland Lake, NY.


My understanding is that RG *is* now owned by Foster City Group. I don't
know precisely when they were drawn up, but I have seen the subdivision
maps for RG land along Soda Springs Rd (potentially eliminating
Switchback trail). FCG probably isn't selling or building on the lots
until the real estate market improves, but I'm sure they still intend to.

Bear in mind that RG includes several thousand acres owned outright and
many more thousands of government land with lease rights to ski
operations. That means that RG can co-exist with gradual housing
development for many years. FCG may even see RG as a "draw" and keep it
operating even at a loss if it makes the overall value of the property
higher. Who knows? We can hope...

That said, I noticed an immediate drop in grooming after the sale.
AFAICT they operate only a single groomer at a time, now. There are
several trails that were never groomed the last season or two and I
doubt will be ever again. There also appears to have been a 100%
turnover of the staff post sale. The new crew isn't bad, but it seems
the "aussie pipeline" is no longer supplying RG.

See you at TDXC and TXC,
Bob
  #8  
Old December 3rd 09, 09:10 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Lew Lasher[_2_]
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Posts: 12
Default XC ski center: viable business?

On Dec 3, 1:40*pm, "
wrote:
Von Trapp Family Lodge appears to do VERY well as an XC ski resort.
Well, at least they started as an XC ski resort - now they have golf
and high-end condos. At least on the surface it seems to be a
profitable business.


They are not what I'd call a "free-standing" cross-country ski area,
because they are connected to a successful hotel. The hotel was there
first, then they added cross-country skiing as an amenity for their
guests, and, in time, the cross-country ski area has grown to become
successful in its own right, probably one of the most successful in
New England. But they undoubtedly make much more money from real
estate than from their (admittedly very successful) cross-country ski
operations!
  #9  
Old December 4th 09, 12:19 AM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
[email protected]
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Posts: 327
Default XC ski center: viable business?


Viable at what level?

To pay taxes? a part-time worker? a mortgage? a whole income? for one
person or more?


Like, support one family and send 1-2 kids to college. I suppose
running a XC center requires the owner to live on site, or within a
daily commuting distance. Which probably means both spouses living,
essentially, in the middle of nowhere. Clearly it was a problem for
the new owners of SH.
  #10  
Old December 4th 09, 03:07 AM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
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Posts: 572
Default XC ski center: viable business?

Plus, if I recall correctly, Von Trapp has a rather extensive shop
business, both ski-related and tourist goodies, far more investment
and inventory than the average center can support.

Gene

On Thu, 3 Dec 2009 13:10:38 -0800 (PST)
Lew Lasher wrote:

On Dec 3, 1:40*pm, "
wrote:
Von Trapp Family Lodge appears to do VERY well as an XC ski resort.
Well, at least they started as an XC ski resort - now they have golf
and high-end condos. At least on the surface it seems to be a
profitable business.


They are not what I'd call a "free-standing" cross-country ski area,
because they are connected to a successful hotel. The hotel was there
first, then they added cross-country skiing as an amenity for their
guests, and, in time, the cross-country ski area has grown to become
successful in its own right, probably one of the most successful in
New England. But they undoubtedly make much more money from real
estate than from their (admittedly very successful) cross-country ski
operations!

 




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