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video make-over



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 23rd 05, 04:29 PM
Ken Roberts
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default video make-over

I put some video clips of my own skating up on the web at
http://roberts-1.com/t/xc045/a/p1/index.htm
I'd be glad if you'd take a look at it and tell me what I should work on
next with my technique.

Last time I posted some of my videos here more than a year ago, the
critiques and suggestions I saw from many of you on this newsgroup were the
best ski lesson I ever got. Thanks to all of you who took the trouble to
analyze and write your comments and put them out in public on the newsgroup.

Those older videos of me skating are still up on the web at
http://roberts-1.com/t/xc034/a/p1
I think I see some changes in my technique since then -- already some sort
of "make-over" (? but is it good or bad ?). Now I'd like to keep on
developing, into another make-over. Playing with my own technique is
fascinating and fun.

My great thanks to JanneG for offering all those elite racer videos for me
to learn from and compare to. Thanks to Zach Caldwell for posting the
toughest and deepest critique of all. Above all to Sharon for enduring the
hassle of all those times standing in the cold taking one more (and then one
more) video shot of me trying to ski different.

Ken

P.S. Why so long since my last post of my videos?

Because changing my technique style was really hard. I was surprised. Of
course I knew that just using the right mental images and concepts would not
work, but I thought that with frequent video analysis, change would be
straightforward -- like substantial change in a month, or certainly after
two months.

Instead what happened with each video session is that I would quickly see
what was wrong in the analysis afterward, and know why it was wrong in the
physics -- and resolve to change it, and practice a new pattern -- but then
in the video Sharon took three weeks later the same flaw would mostly still
be there. Or I'd focus on fixing two subtle but critical problems for
several months, and then notice three other visually-obvious flaws that
"should" have been settled long ago. So my progress felt embarrassing.


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  #2  
Old March 23rd 05, 05:10 PM
delltodd
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

KR,

It takes courage to post that stuff & invite criticism.

Wow they are hugely different.

On the positive side, you are skiing a lot less in the middle, making
much better weight transfer which is key to all moves. This is great
progress.

I wonder about the head flopping you have added. Is this a tool to get
you to stay on the gliding ski longer ? If you could quiet that down, I
would think you've basically got it. You may not even realize it,
although the view must be:

Snow
Treetops
Bluesky
Snow

whereas I think it should probably be more like

Snow a couple ski lengths ahead
Top of hill
Look just ahead
Look to top of hill

Or anything that gets your head quieted down. Your glide is about twice
as long now, isn't it ? I bet you had to work on your basic balance
skills, and maybe you have even honed the core strength.

I bet you have better weight transfer in your V2 now also. That would
be fun to see.

Thanks.

DT

  #3  
Old March 24th 05, 01:18 AM
Gene Goldenfeld
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Posts: n/a
Default

I agree with Dell about your willingness to post and ask for help, and
your improvement.

There's a basic misunderstanding here. In three of the sequences you
are trying to get weight shift, i.e., get from skate to skate from your
upper body, esp. your shoulders. They are rocking, bobbing, weaving,
etc. Instead, skating needs to come from your core/pelvic area and
legs, with the upper body moving naturally along without tilting. The
phrase often used is to have a quiet upper body. In the other sequence
(side, legs), you are virtually running on skis rather than skating
(perhaps the mental image is stepping, but you are actually moving too
fast to step). For all of this...

Exercise 1: Skate keeping your nongliding ski very close to the snow,
literally lifting it just enough to clear and no higher. This exercise
will force you to use your legs, as well as ankles, edges and such,
while helping you get the feel of staying on the ski longer.

Exercise 2: V1 Skate with a stiff (but not rigid) upper body, using mild
terrain. This is an exaggerated position that will help make clear what
a quiet upper body is. Do V2 this way also.

Exercise 3 (no pole and pole): After you get comfortable with the first
two exercises, i.e., you are actually using your legs and are skating
ski to ski and you have quieted your torso, then try driving each skate
with your upper thigh (some people use the knee, but I like to emphasize
the top of the leg because it's easier to keep your hip over the ski
from there). This will help you get up over the ski more and stay there
longer. It's a different and great feeling.

Poling: Isolating it from all the shoulder and head movement, your V1
poling actually looks pretty good. If you quiet the upper body, it will
get a lot easier and more effective. I would suggest bringing the
off-side hand across in front more, but no farther than halfway across
your torso. Swimmers and big-shouldered folks tend to keep the off-side
hand wider, while the rest of us are stronger closer, more like double
pole hand distance apart.

Poling Exercise: Do V1 with one pole, poling from both the strong side
and then the off-side pole. This will also help you use your legs.

Gene



Ken Roberts wrote:

I put some video clips of my own skating up on the web at
http://roberts-1.com/t/xc045/a/p1/index.htm
I'd be glad if you'd take a look at it and tell me what I should work on
next with my technique.

Last time I posted some of my videos here more than a year ago, the
critiques and suggestions I saw from many of you on this newsgroup were the
best ski lesson I ever got. Thanks to all of you who took the trouble to
analyze and write your comments and put them out in public on the newsgroup.

Those older videos of me skating are still up on the web at
http://roberts-1.com/t/xc034/a/p1
I think I see some changes in my technique since then -- already some sort
of "make-over" (? but is it good or bad ?). Now I'd like to keep on
developing, into another make-over. Playing with my own technique is
fascinating and fun.

My great thanks to JanneG for offering all those elite racer videos for me
to learn from and compare to. Thanks to Zach Caldwell for posting the
toughest and deepest critique of all. Above all to Sharon for enduring the
hassle of all those times standing in the cold taking one more (and then one
more) video shot of me trying to ski different.

Ken

P.S. Why so long since my last post of my videos?

Because changing my technique style was really hard. I was surprised. Of
course I knew that just using the right mental images and concepts would not
work, but I thought that with frequent video analysis, change would be
straightforward -- like substantial change in a month, or certainly after
two months.

Instead what happened with each video session is that I would quickly see
what was wrong in the analysis afterward, and know why it was wrong in the
physics -- and resolve to change it, and practice a new pattern -- but then
in the video Sharon took three weeks later the same flaw would mostly still
be there. Or I'd focus on fixing two subtle but critical problems for
several months, and then notice three other visually-obvious flaws that
"should" have been settled long ago. So my progress felt embarrassing.

  #4  
Old March 24th 05, 08:14 PM
Ken Roberts
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Posts: n/a
Default

delltodd wrote
I wonder about the head flopping you have added.


I did not add that to my V1. The head-flopping just showed up on its own.

I completely agree that it makes sense to stabilize my head for a stable
view (like roughly toward the direction I'm going).

But I'm not seeing a straightforward way to get that. So looks like it's
going to be a year again until I post another video. I should be grateful to
have something else to keep those long-slow-distance sessions from getting
boring.

Interesting that in observing the front-view video of my Legs Only skate,
seems like my head is looking mostly straight forward -- even though my
shoulders are tilting and turning all over the place. I think that's because
I skate all summer with no poles, so I get lots of hours to work on
stabilizing my head. So my interpretation is that it's the asymmetric V1
offset poling that's messing up my head-stability.

I bet you have better weight transfer in your V2 now also.


Probably yes. It's a little sad for me to look at my older videos -- I feel
like saying "Cmon guy, put a little oomph into your skiing".

But I almost never do V2 skate any more. For a while it was my favorite
technique. Now on gentler terrain I find I just love the quiet power (and
stable view) of Legs-only skating.

Maybe it's time to revisit V2 and see what it can do for me.

Ken
______________________________________________
delltodd wrote
It takes courage to post that stuff & invite criticism.

Wow they are hugely different.

On the positive side, you are skiing a lot less in the middle, making
much better weight transfer which is key to all moves. This is great
progress.

I wonder about the head flopping you have added. Is this a tool to get
you to stay on the gliding ski longer ? If you could quiet that down, I
would think you've basically got it. You may not even realize it,
although the view must be:

Snow
Treetops
Bluesky
Snow

whereas I think it should probably be more like

Snow a couple ski lengths ahead
Top of hill
Look just ahead
Look to top of hill

Or anything that gets your head quieted down. Your glide is about twice
as long now, isn't it ? I bet you had to work on your basic balance
skills, and maybe you have even honed the core strength.

I bet you have better weight transfer in your V2 now also. That would
be fun to see.

Thanks.

DT

____________________________________________


  #5  
Old March 24th 05, 09:20 PM
Ken Roberts
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Gene Goldenfeld wrote
There's a basic misunderstanding here


Yes I think Gene and I do have a "basic" -- not misunderstanding -- We just
plain disagree.

. . . have a quiet upper body.


Gene thinks I should have a quiet upper body. I think "quiet" is an option
for skating on the flats, but when I gotta climb up a steep hill, I need to
get wild with my upper body. I think that's what physics says, and that's
what the elite racers in the videos do. Put me on hard snow on the flats and
I'll skate as pretty as you want, but if I'm going to make it up a hill with
soft snow on it, I gotta do what works. And I think physics says that what
works includes:
* smooth effective leg-push out toward the side, while the ski is gliding
way out to the side.
* stable hips
* wild side-to-side motion of torso
* stable head

The way I analyze those videos of my V1, I'm getting close on 3 out of 4 of
those points, but I'm still way off on 1 out of 4 ("stable head"). So
"stable head in V1" is now on my list to work on for next year. But I would
need to hear some good reason for why I should also be adding "quiet upper
body for climbing up hills".

In the other sequence (side, legs), you are virtually
running on skis rather than skating


To me that side view of Legs-only looks very different from running up a
hill:
* each ski keeps gliding forward the whole time it's on the snow.
* as the leg pushes, the heel drives down and back into the snow.

I don't think hill-runners drive their heels down like that. True, the glide
is nowhere near as long as you'd expect to see of someone skating on the
flats -- but that video was taken on the steepest hill at the Mohonk ski
center -- How much glide can you expect there from some guy with distinctly
non-elite leg muscles?

And viewing the Legs-only front-view video using pause and single-frame, on
most of the leg-pushes (especially the skier's left leg):
* the pushing leg ends up nearly fully straightened,
* with the toe pointed out way to the side.

I do not think running up a hill looks like that. I guess I need more help
in identifying the "running" aspects of the motion.

I'm sorta thinking that the side-view Legs video looks a bit like "hot feet"
or "dynamic legs". I even see some of that "knee drive" move that Vordenberg
has been focusing on lately. And in the front-view Legs video when the toe
ends pointed out to the side -- could that be a bit of that "kicking
forward" move that Rob Bradlee was describing on this newsgroup 3 weeks ago
to help with "Struggles going upshill"?

(Let's see what I can learn from basic disagreement.)

Ken
_______________________________________
Gene Goldenfeld wrote
I agree with Dell about your willingness to post and ask for help, and
your improvement.

There's a basic misunderstanding here. In three of the sequences you
are trying to get weight shift, i.e., get from skate to skate from your
upper body, esp. your shoulders. They are rocking, bobbing, weaving,
etc. Instead, skating needs to come from your core/pelvic area and
legs, with the upper body moving naturally along without tilting. The
phrase often used is to have a quiet upper body. In the other sequence
(side, legs), you are virtually running on skis rather than skating
(perhaps the mental image is stepping, but you are actually moving too
fast to step). For all of this...

Exercise 1: Skate keeping your nongliding ski very close to the snow,
literally lifting it just enough to clear and no higher. This exercise
will force you to use your legs, as well as ankles, edges and such,
while helping you get the feel of staying on the ski longer.

Exercise 2: V1 Skate with a stiff (but not rigid) upper body, using mild
terrain. This is an exaggerated position that will help make clear what
a quiet upper body is. Do V2 this way also.

Exercise 3 (no pole and pole): After you get comfortable with the first
two exercises, i.e., you are actually using your legs and are skating
ski to ski and you have quieted your torso, then try driving each skate
with your upper thigh (some people use the knee, but I like to emphasize
the top of the leg because it's easier to keep your hip over the ski
from there). This will help you get up over the ski more and stay there
longer. It's a different and great feeling.

Poling: Isolating it from all the shoulder and head movement, your V1
poling actually looks pretty good. If you quiet the upper body, it will
get a lot easier and more effective. I would suggest bringing the
off-side hand across in front more, but no farther than halfway across
your torso. Swimmers and big-shouldered folks tend to keep the off-side
hand wider, while the rest of us are stronger closer, more like double
pole hand distance apart.

Poling Exercise: Do V1 with one pole, poling from both the strong side
and then the off-side pole. This will also help you use your legs.

Gene

__________________________________________________



  #6  
Old March 25th 05, 01:03 AM
Gene Goldenfeld
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I'm not going to argue with you, all the more so since you didn't
address me. If you can find someone else in the world to agree with
you, then you will have a party of two. Good luck.

GG



Ken Roberts wrote:

Gene Goldenfeld wrote
There's a basic misunderstanding here


Yes I think Gene and I do have a "basic" -- not misunderstanding -- We just
plain disagree.

. . . have a quiet upper body.


Gene thinks I should have a quiet upper body. I think "quiet" is an option
for skating on the flats, but when I gotta climb up a steep hill, I need to
get wild with my upper body. I think that's what physics says, and that's
what the elite racers in the videos do. Put me on hard snow on the flats and
I'll skate as pretty as you want, but if I'm going to make it up a hill with
soft snow on it, I gotta do what works. And I think physics says that what
works includes:
* smooth effective leg-push out toward the side, while the ski is gliding
way out to the side.
* stable hips
* wild side-to-side motion of torso
* stable head

The way I analyze those videos of my V1, I'm getting close on 3 out of 4 of
those points, but I'm still way off on 1 out of 4 ("stable head"). So
"stable head in V1" is now on my list to work on for next year. But I would
need to hear some good reason for why I should also be adding "quiet upper
body for climbing up hills".

In the other sequence (side, legs), you are virtually
running on skis rather than skating


To me that side view of Legs-only looks very different from running up a
hill:
* each ski keeps gliding forward the whole time it's on the snow.
* as the leg pushes, the heel drives down and back into the snow.

I don't think hill-runners drive their heels down like that. True, the glide
is nowhere near as long as you'd expect to see of someone skating on the
flats -- but that video was taken on the steepest hill at the Mohonk ski
center -- How much glide can you expect there from some guy with distinctly
non-elite leg muscles?

And viewing the Legs-only front-view video using pause and single-frame, on
most of the leg-pushes (especially the skier's left leg):
* the pushing leg ends up nearly fully straightened,
* with the toe pointed out way to the side.

I do not think running up a hill looks like that. I guess I need more help
in identifying the "running" aspects of the motion.

I'm sorta thinking that the side-view Legs video looks a bit like "hot feet"
or "dynamic legs". I even see some of that "knee drive" move that Vordenberg
has been focusing on lately. And in the front-view Legs video when the toe
ends pointed out to the side -- could that be a bit of that "kicking
forward" move that Rob Bradlee was describing on this newsgroup 3 weeks ago
to help with "Struggles going upshill"?

(Let's see what I can learn from basic disagreement.)

Ken
_______________________________________
Gene Goldenfeld wrote
I agree with Dell about your willingness to post and ask for help, and
your improvement.

There's a basic misunderstanding here. In three of the sequences you
are trying to get weight shift, i.e., get from skate to skate from your
upper body, esp. your shoulders. They are rocking, bobbing, weaving,
etc. Instead, skating needs to come from your core/pelvic area and
legs, with the upper body moving naturally along without tilting. The
phrase often used is to have a quiet upper body. In the other sequence
(side, legs), you are virtually running on skis rather than skating
(perhaps the mental image is stepping, but you are actually moving too
fast to step). For all of this...

Exercise 1: Skate keeping your nongliding ski very close to the snow,
literally lifting it just enough to clear and no higher. This exercise
will force you to use your legs, as well as ankles, edges and such,
while helping you get the feel of staying on the ski longer.

Exercise 2: V1 Skate with a stiff (but not rigid) upper body, using mild
terrain. This is an exaggerated position that will help make clear what
a quiet upper body is. Do V2 this way also.

Exercise 3 (no pole and pole): After you get comfortable with the first
two exercises, i.e., you are actually using your legs and are skating
ski to ski and you have quieted your torso, then try driving each skate
with your upper thigh (some people use the knee, but I like to emphasize
the top of the leg because it's easier to keep your hip over the ski
from there). This will help you get up over the ski more and stay there
longer. It's a different and great feeling.

Poling: Isolating it from all the shoulder and head movement, your V1
poling actually looks pretty good. If you quiet the upper body, it will
get a lot easier and more effective. I would suggest bringing the
off-side hand across in front more, but no farther than halfway across
your torso. Swimmers and big-shouldered folks tend to keep the off-side
hand wider, while the rest of us are stronger closer, more like double
pole hand distance apart.

Poling Exercise: Do V1 with one pole, poling from both the strong side
and then the off-side pole. This will also help you use your legs.

Gene

__________________________________________________

  #7  
Old March 25th 05, 05:00 AM
Andrew Lee
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Posts: n/a
Default

Ken, at times I almost think that you are trolling ;^)

I also taught myself and I shudder to think how I looked skating my first
two years, but I think that my learning process made me very aware of what
mental technique pointers worked for me. I also have skating imprinted into
my brain from watching and rewatching the 1998 Olympic tapes continuously
one winter (and later 2002 Olympics and Janne's technique videos) during the
time I finally picked up how to skate correctly.

Here are the things that I noticed on your new videos:

Your weight is on your heels. You are skating like a speed skater pre-clap
skate. It was very noticeable to me that your boots never come off your
skis you could probably ski the same way if your heel was fixed! You should
be aware of your center of gravity. When your weight is back, your COG is
over your heels and that's where you feel the pressure in your feet. You
need to shift your weight forward so that your COG is over the front part of
your foot... the ball of your foot or just behind the ball of your foot. If
you feel the most pressure at that point when you skate off, you know you
have it right. References from memory: Galanes (RSN poster "Jim") wrote
that the push should be with whole foot, with greatest pressure on the
forefoot. Abby Larson had an article a while back somewhere where she says
that she can tell she is in the right fore-aft position when her weight is
on the front part of he feet.

You are not using your abdominals, at least not to the extent that you
should or the way that you should. One part of it is the running thing that
Gene mentioned in your forward step. Getting this right was THE key for me
(I picked up the tip from the archives of RSN a couple of years ago). Don't
step forward with your leg. Swing (not lift) your leg forward with your
abs... You can figure out how to do that now in the house. Visualize your
legs going all the way to the bottom of your ribs and move from there.
During my first two years of skiing, I never used my abs. One time, as I
was skiing behind my friend up a long hill, I asked her if she was using her
abs and she told me OF COURSE! and that it was almost cramping up. She's a
high level skier, so that was a wakeup for me. Anyway, that visualization
for bring the leg forward turned my skiing around within minutes of trying
it. Immediately my upper body was more stable. In the legs only views, you
can tell that you are not using your abs and that it is resulting in you
having fore-aft balance problems (where you seem to get your upper body too
far forward and need to correct...).

I agree with Gene on your upper body. You should shift your weight around
and compress to some extent, but your upper body should move as a whole.
Dang, Ken, you are even arching your back backwards the V1 front view video
(the side view doesn't look as bad). If you keep your torso connected with
your pelvis with body tension, ALL of your upper body will be involved with
weight shift (not just your torso) and the overall movement will be quieter.
It's an easier and more effective way of loading your weight on your kicking
(skating) foot than what you are doing with the extra torso movement.

Keep your head steady too.






  #8  
Old March 25th 05, 09:08 AM
Janne G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Ken Roberts wrote:
I put some video clips of my own skating up on the web at
http://roberts-1.com/t/xc045/a/p1/index.htm
I'd be glad if you'd take a look at it and tell me what I should work on
next with my technique.



Ken take a look at the skateclimbslomo.avi at my site and compare
especially Ole-Einar Björndalen that are skating at the far side from
the camera. Tell me what you se that differ from your video.

This was intresting, so intresting that i whanted to go out with the
video myself and try it, but then the thermometer was hovering around
+6C, not my favorite snowcondition.

Janne G
  #9  
Old March 25th 05, 02:24 PM
Gene Goldenfeld
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Nice analysis, Andrew. Several years ago Mary Kay (MK) linked in an
article by Max Jones about using the psoas muscles in skating, which are
behind the abs. I can't find it now, but will look later.

Gene

Andrew Lee wrote:

Swing (not lift) your leg forward with your
abs... You can figure out how to do that now in the house. Visualize your
legs going all the way to the bottom of your ribs and move from there.

  #10  
Old March 25th 05, 06:44 PM
Jim Grau
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Ken, I think what you're doing here can spark some really helpful
discussion. Most of us who are still struggling to improve our
technique no doubt look a lot more like Ken Roberts than Carl Swenson,
so your videos may make it easier for us to see what needs to be
changed.

Bearing in mind that I'm just a struggling skier who gets blown away by
Ken on the uphills, I can see one difference between Ken and the elite
skiers in Janne's collection: I see more forward hip rotation in the
elite skiers vs a deeper knee bend from Ken. Whether we should be
consciously thinking about it or not, it seems we DO need to bring the
foot forward and upward to get up the hill, and what I see in Ken's
video (and probably in mine if I had one) is that he's moving the
foot upward and forward by bending the knee with a fairly stationary
hip, which tends to put the hip back; whereas the elite skiers move the
hip forward and upward with consequently less knee bend.

I never did totally understand the concept of "keeping the hips
forward", but somebody (maybe Ken actually) pointed out something
that might be important: that "hips forward" should not be thought
of as a "position" but rather as a "move", as in your hips
shouldn't be forward all the time, but rather moved forward at the
right time. It seems to me that the elite skiers are doing this by
rotating their hips, both in V1 skating and in classic. I suspect
there's some disagreement about hip rotation since I distinctly
recall an article in the Master Skier suggesting skating no poles with
your poles behind your back so that any of this presumably undesirable
hip rotation would be accentuated.

Hopefully some of the technique experts can weigh in and set me
straight here. Again, I applaud Ken's courage for posting the videos
and I hope they solicit more discussion that we strugglers can find
helpful.

Jim

 




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