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Skating in citizen classic races



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 10th 04, 04:32 PM
Jeff Potter
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Default Skating in citizen classic races

I'm guessing that the fix is:

1*Pre-race announcement of rules along with remedy (take off your bib if
you want to skate) with verbal acknowledgement from the field.

2*Self-DQ---take bib off; no reason to be glum; no harm, no foul; skate
as you please.

3*That should do the trick well enough, but if 1 & 2 don't work over
course of a season, then place a couple feeds at top of major uphills
and include a couple educated volunteers at those feeds to monitor
skating and give warnings, etc. Director then DQs if need be.

4*No DQs from peers.

This should be enough. Close enough will be good enough. Minor deviance
seems tolerable, accidents happen, etc. Peers DQing or naming names
might hurt citizen events (almost) as badly as the cheaters. Hopefully
the positive steps 1 & 2 are enough.

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publisher of do-it-yourself culture ... bikes, skis, boats & more! ...

... offering Vordenberg's XC ski tales in "Momentum"! ...
... "The Recumbent Bicycle": the only book about these bikes! ...
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  #2  
Old March 11th 04, 12:53 AM
sknyski
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Default Skating in citizen classic races

Sheesh. Is nothing sacred anymore? It's ok to skate now in a
striding race as long as you "fess up"? Let's preserve a playground
for those of us who actually know how to ski.

bt
  #3  
Old March 11th 04, 01:20 AM
Jeff Potter
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Default Skating in citizen classic races

sknyski wrote:

Sheesh. Is nothing sacred anymore? It's ok to skate now in a
striding race as long as you "fess up"? Let's preserve a playground
for those of us who actually know how to ski.


It's only OK if you take your bib off.

I think that would be standard.

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publisher of do-it-yourself culture ... bikes, skis, boats & more! ...

... offering Vordenberg's XC ski tales in "Momentum"! ...
... "The Recumbent Bicycle": the only book about these bikes! ...
... Rudloe's "Potluck": true-life story of workingclass smuggling! ...

... with radical novels coming up via LiteraryRevolution.com! ...
... music! ... articles! ... travel forums! ... WOW! 800-763-6923


  #4  
Old March 11th 04, 01:56 AM
Gary Jacobson
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Default Skating in citizen classic races

At Konig Ludwig Lauf this year I saw many people skating up the steep hills.
Why? I don't know. Maybe bad wax and they don't like to herrignbone.
And when I sked the Vasaloppet, I saw many people skating around the 80 km.
mark.Heck, I don't think I could have skated if i wanted to. The
"neuro-muscular patterning" was so deep that I wa literally skiing in my
sleep that night.

When I see this at first I am angry, but then I don't care. Whats there to
be upset about? These folks aren't winning any pizes. Unless of course they
are planning to vie for the Johann Muhlegg cheater award in the next annual
Gunde Svan RSN award.

Gary Jacosbon
Rosendale, NY

"Jeff Potter" wrote in message
.. .
sknyski wrote:

Sheesh. Is nothing sacred anymore? It's ok to skate now in a
striding race as long as you "fess up"? Let's preserve a playground
for those of us who actually know how to ski.


It's only OK if you take your bib off.

I think that would be standard.

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publisher of do-it-yourself culture ... bikes, skis, boats & more! ...

... offering Vordenberg's XC ski tales in "Momentum"! ...
... "The Recumbent Bicycle": the only book about these bikes! ...
... Rudloe's "Potluck": true-life story of workingclass smuggling! ...

... with radical novels coming up via LiteraryRevolution.com! ...
... music! ... articles! ... travel forums! ... WOW! 800-763-6923




  #5  
Old March 11th 04, 02:44 AM
Jeff Potter
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Default Skating in citizen classic races

Gary Jacobson wrote:

At Konig Ludwig Lauf this year I saw many people skating up the steep hills.
Why? I don't know. Maybe bad wax and they don't like to herrignbone.
And when I sked the Vasaloppet, I saw many people skating around the 80 km.
mark.Heck, I don't think I could have skated if i wanted to. The
"neuro-muscular patterning" was so deep that I wa literally skiing in my
sleep that night.

When I see this at first I am angry, but then I don't care. Whats there to
be upset about? These folks aren't winning any pizes. Unless of course they
are planning to vie for the Johann Muhlegg cheater award in the next annual
Gunde Svan RSN award.


I personally don't get too peeved, but then I didn't have folks do it right in
front of me.

We're having some trouble in the top ten actually.

There are a good half dozen teams vying for Mich Cup points. Ranking matters.
Also, people like to beat each other around here, move up versus each other.
We're competitive, but good sports. It's gotta be fair.

I also hate herringbone at present and am almost sympathetic to someone doing
diag-skate just to keep moving. If you're doing it on the flats or graduals
you're saying you can't/won't do ANY classic. But really I *do* respect
herringbone and want to improve and really don't want to see someone
diag-skating either. A nice light herringbone is nice to see. Anyone who can do
it nice deserves to go right past someone who's floundering. The skate is not
an excusable way out.

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publisher of do-it-yourself culture ... bikes, skis, boats & more! ...
... offering Vordenberg's XC ski tales in "Momentum"! ...
... "The Recumbent Bicycle": the only book about these bikes! ...
... Rudloe's "Potluck": true-life story of workingclass smuggling! ...
... with radical novels coming up via LiteraryRevolution.com! ...
... music! ... articles! ... travel forums! ... WOW! 800-763-6923


  #6  
Old March 11th 04, 04:13 AM
Gene Goldenfeld
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Default Skating in citizen classic races

Jeff Potter wrote:

I'm guessing that the fix is:
4*No DQs from peers.


Don't agree. In smaller races, saying something to the race director
about a clear and continuous (long enough) violation by a podium placer
seems appropriate. It's then up to them -- and often others privately
say something as well. In a Yosemite Nordic Festival 17k classic
several years ago, the winner (or 2nd) was marathon skating the long
downhill after the turnaround. A few of us reported it and he was dq'd,
altho he had apparently already departed for Tahoe and The Great Race.
Rather than creating a bad atmosphere, it actually solidifies the
solidarity of those who do it right.

Gene
  #7  
Old March 11th 04, 11:39 AM
John O'Connell
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Default Skating in citizen classic races

Similar experience in the Half Vasa this year. It was so icy in spots
and wax had been stripped that many people resorted to skating just to
get up some of the moderate hills. I guess I was surprised but not
bothered. If you looked at the faces many of these folks were really
struggling....as a frequent "bonker" I guess I just have some empathy
for times when you resort to whatever will keep you moving....not that
I'd do it of course

What I did notice in the TV coverge of the leaders (top 60 or so) in
the Vasaloppet was frequent lane shifting for no apparent reason, that
does give you the legal option for a quick skate to get over to the
next track...it seemed to be part of a strategy. At that level the
transition is so smooth and powerfull that I believe it did allow for
some acceleration.

John OC







"Gary Jacobson" wrote in message .. .
At Konig Ludwig Lauf this year I saw many people skating up the steep hills.
Why? I don't know. Maybe bad wax and they don't like to herrignbone.
And when I sked the Vasaloppet, I saw many people skating around the 80 km.
mark.Heck, I don't think I could have skated if i wanted to. The
"neuro-muscular patterning" was so deep that I wa literally skiing in my
sleep that night.

When I see this at first I am angry, but then I don't care. Whats there to
be upset about? These folks aren't winning any pizes. Unless of course they
are planning to vie for the Johann Muhlegg cheater award in the next annual
Gunde Svan RSN award.

Gary Jacosbon
Rosendale, NY

"Jeff Potter" wrote in message
.. .
sknyski wrote:

Sheesh. Is nothing sacred anymore? It's ok to skate now in a
striding race as long as you "fess up"? Let's preserve a playground
for those of us who actually know how to ski.


It's only OK if you take your bib off.

I think that would be standard.

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publisher of do-it-yourself culture ... bikes, skis, boats & more! ...

... offering Vordenberg's XC ski tales in "Momentum"! ...
... "The Recumbent Bicycle": the only book about these bikes! ...
... Rudloe's "Potluck": true-life story of workingclass smuggling! ...

... with radical novels coming up via LiteraryRevolution.com! ...
... music! ... articles! ... travel forums! ... WOW! 800-763-6923


  #8  
Old March 11th 04, 01:47 PM
Ken Roberts
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Default Skating in citizen classic races

My observation from the Masters World Cup 30K Classic in Quebec a couple of
years ago is that by far the biggest skating "problem" in high-level Classic
racing is the _curves_.

Any section of the course that looked sorta like a curve was a de facto
"skating zone".

Is that legal?
It sure violates my esthetic sense what a "Classic technique" event should
be.

I suppose the problem with forbidding skating on curves would be consistency
in _enforcement_: What would be the definable legal line between (a) a
series of step-turns around a curve and (b) blatant skating?

The other (possibly?) consistently-enforcable alternative rule I see would
be to forbid step-turns. But that means that everybody has to either stay
in the track grooves (OK by me, but doesn't work for some curves, especially
downhill, and depends on snow conditions which might be different by the
third lap?) -- or skid around the curve (not very racer-like).

In the absence of the organizers going out and labelling in advance which
specific curves must be taken in-the-groove or whatever, it seems like we're
left with:
"Skate like hell around every curve."

If that _is_ legal, do all the "peer reporters" know it?

Ken


  #9  
Old March 11th 04, 01:47 PM
Ken Roberts
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Default Skating in citizen classic races

Seems to me that skating up a hill is observably different from
herringbone -- and therefore consistently-enforceable, if there are
observers.

Gary Jacobson wrote
At Konig Ludwig Lauf this year I saw many people skating
up the steep hills. Why? I don't know.


Because skating up a hill is easier and/or faster than herringbone. And
switching to skating engages some different muscles than classic striding
and double-poling, which helps fight against fatigue.

And when I sked the Vasaloppet, I saw many people skating
around the 80 km mark.


I don't have a big problem with people who sincerely intended to do the
whole race pure Classic, but their grip wax stopped working -- provided they
are not podium-contenders. I guess Jeff's idea of removing the bib seems
like a reasonable way to self-identify the situation. Maybe we could have a
separate category on the official results list, say "FNC" for "Finished but
Not pure Classic".

Actually I feel sorry for people who try to do the whole Vasaloppet course
with Classic technique. Except for that first big hill, it's a beautiful
skating course -- and it was beautifully groomed for skating last year when
I did the Oppet Spar Skridsko.

Ken


  #10  
Old March 11th 04, 02:24 PM
Jeff Potter
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Default Skating in citizen classic races

Gene Goldenfeld wrote:

Jeff Potter wrote:

I'm guessing that the fix is:
4*No DQs from peers.


Don't agree.


I'd have this be a last resort.

The Mich scene gets along very well. I think we'll nip this well enough
before it gets to hearsay, reporting, etc.

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publisher of do-it-yourself culture ... bikes, skis, boats & more! ...
... offering Vordenberg's XC ski tales in "Momentum"! ...
... "The Recumbent Bicycle": the only book about these bikes! ...
... Rudloe's "Potluck": true-life story of workingclass smuggling! ...
... with radical novels coming up via LiteraryRevolution.com! ...
... music! ... articles! ... travel forums! ... WOW! 800-763-6923


 




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