Skating and bonking

Onno Oerlemans wrote:

Having fared rather miserably at the Keski 50K skate race this Sunday
(shortened to 42.5K because of the cold), and trying to analyze my failure,
I have a burning question on my mind. I bonked badly on the easy parkway
ride home. I've never bonked this hard, this suddenly before. While I'd been
doing pretty well up to Champlain lookout, the race quickly became simply a
matter of finishing, rather than competing. Part, or perhaps all, of the
reason for this is inadequate training, but it's long seemed to me that
skate races, though faster, are harder than classic races. Does anyone else
feel this way?

Yes, I feel exactly the same and agree with your reasons.
Skating a hilly course is much harder for me than doing
classic because if I herringbone up a big hill I can keep
the intensity down by just going slowly whereas skating up a
hill, even slowly, is much more tiring for me. My legs tend
to cramp up in hilly skate races and never do in classic races.

My quads turned to jelly very suddenly; the race up to that point had
included a lot of long fairly steep uphills on relatively slow snow. My
feeling is that pushing myself on those hills (not to aerobic exhaustion,
but to severe lactic build-up), trying to keep my skis gliding uphill, did
me in for the end of the race. In a classic race, I could more easily have
controlled my energy expenditure on those hills. (You have to herringbone
uphill in a classic race, while it's bad form to herringbone in a skate
race, holding up people behind you). I certainly keep doing better in
classic races than skate races, though I think of myself as equally capable
in both (i.e. they both feel relatively smooth and comfortable, though I've
only received a little coaching). My sense is that by not over-exerting on
the hills in a classic race, I have more strength for keeping up my speed to
the end of the race.

The other possibility (apart, again, from simple lack of training) is that
in fact my skating technique is not as good as I think it is, that I'm
wasting energy on the hills, and so simply have less to use on the rest.

Any thoughts welcome!

Onno Oerlemans

Having fared rather miserably at the Keski 50K skate race this Sunday
(shortened to 42.5K because of the cold), and trying to analyze my failure,
I have a burning question on my mind. I bonked badly on the easy parkway
ride home. I've never bonked this hard, this suddenly before. While I'd been
doing pretty well up to Champlain lookout, the race quickly became simply a
matter of finishing, rather than competing. Part, or perhaps all, of the
reason for this is inadequate training, but it's long seemed to me that
skate races, though faster, are harder than classic races. Does anyone else
feel this way?

My quads turned to jelly very suddenly; the race up to that point had
included a lot of long fairly steep uphills on relatively slow snow. My
feeling is that pushing myself on those hills (not to aerobic exhaustion,
but to severe lactic build-up), trying to keep my skis gliding uphill, did
me in for the end of the race. In a classic race, I could more easily have
controlled my energy expenditure on those hills. (You have to herringbone
uphill in a classic race, while it's bad form to herringbone in a skate
race, holding up people behind you). I certainly keep doing better in
classic races than skate races, though I think of myself as equally capable
in both (i.e. they both feel relatively smooth and comfortable, though I've
only received a little coaching). My sense is that by not over-exerting on
the hills in a classic race, I have more strength for keeping up my speed to
the end of the race.

The other possibility (apart, again, from simple lack of training) is that
in fact my skating technique is not as good as I think it is, that I'm
wasting energy on the hills, and so simply have less to use on the rest.

Any thoughts welcome!

Onno Oerlemans

Onno...

With a 3:07 that's not too shabby even with a bonk! so your technique must
be sound.

IMHO I find skating easier although I am an expert now, but classic has so
much more in terms of finesse and upper body. Not to mention wax etc etc.

Certainly you could have spent lots of energy up those hills (Penguin
especially - so much congestion!) when the better choice may have been on
the return leg essentially downhill from Champlain.

On the parkways use V-2 and leg skate whenever possible. Depending how good
you flat ski and glide hold are...

.... Snow was so SLOW in spots it squeaked!



"Onno Oerlemans" wrote in message
...
Having fared rather miserably at the Keski 50K skate race this Sunday
(shortened to 42.5K because of the cold), and trying to analyze my
failure,
I have a burning question on my mind. I bonked badly on the easy parkway
ride home. I've never bonked this hard, this suddenly before. While I'd
been
doing pretty well up to Champlain lookout, the race quickly became simply
a
matter of finishing, rather than competing. Part, or perhaps all, of the
reason for this is inadequate training, but it's long seemed to me that
skate races, though faster, are harder than classic races. Does anyone
else
feel this way?

My quads turned to jelly very suddenly; the race up to that point had
included a lot of long fairly steep uphills on relatively slow snow. My
feeling is that pushing myself on those hills (not to aerobic exhaustion,
but to severe lactic build-up), trying to keep my skis gliding uphill, did
me in for the end of the race. In a classic race, I could more easily have
controlled my energy expenditure on those hills. (You have to herringbone
uphill in a classic race, while it's bad form to herringbone in a skate
race, holding up people behind you). I certainly keep doing better in
classic races than skate races, though I think of myself as equally
capable
in both (i.e. they both feel relatively smooth and comfortable, though
I've
only received a little coaching). My sense is that by not over-exerting on
the hills in a classic race, I have more strength for keeping up my speed
to
the end of the race.

The other possibility (apart, again, from simple lack of training) is that
in fact my skating technique is not as good as I think it is, that I'm
wasting energy on the hills, and so simply have less to use on the rest.

Any thoughts welcome!

Onno Oerlemans

"Onno Oerlemans" wrote in message ...
[snip]

The other possibility (apart, again, from simple lack of training) is that
in fact my skating technique is not as good as I think it is, that I'm
wasting energy on the hills, and so simply have less to use on the rest.

Any thoughts welcome!

Onno Oerlemans

I found the snow conditions to be much worse on the top section of
the parkway. It felt like sandpaper. It is likely you were working
much harder to glide than usual and combined with the extra climbing
of Burma (after Penguin & Pink) this could have drained you.

I have bonked on this course in 2000 due to lack of food. Like you
I continued, recovered, and finished. Perhaps you didn't eat enough?

Cheers,
Allan Butler

On 17 Feb 2004, at 8:23, Allan Butler wrote:

I found the snow conditions to be much worse on the top section of the
parkway. It felt like sandpaper

I found the same thing in the 50K classic last year.


Eddie Luban

It took me a long time to figure this stuff out. I bonked in many marathons in
a row, until I just stopped doing them. Then I determined to figure them out.

I was inspired particularly by seeing marathon winners on video just stopping
and drinking multiple cups at every feed. For some reason that helped me in a
break-thru: I determined to drink/feed a LOT. I recall that I decided to drink
3 cups of energy drink at every feedzone.

My next breakthru maybe relates more to your problem: I decided to do my first
'comeback' marathon without effort, to not strain at all, to accept a slower
time or whatever time, but with my goal only being to finish in comfort.

In my skate racing that season I discovered another angle you hint at: in
skating it is possible to put maybe twice the effort into a stroke as it is in
classic. It's like each skate-cycle can be either like riding in a low gear or
in a very tall gear: you can strain or go easy. In classic, it's like you're in
the gear ranges of easy to medium-easy. Except on a medium uphill it's hard to
just strain the legs in a cycle. Somehow it does seem like you can bury
yourself with skating in a way that's independent of pace/heart-rate, or
perceptably so. That is, when going "medium hard" in skating, your legs can be
working fairly easy or under fairly intense strain. That is, there's more
"pedal" to be aware of. You can find yourself using reserves more easily.

So!...I resolved not to "use my pedal" in that next marathon.

....And maybe this is especially so for skating on uphills!

So...I determined to cruise the flats with a bone-on-bone technique. Then to
overtly back off halfway on the uphills. This would be a big change for me
because I love uphills and previously enjoyed digging in on them.

So, I did this! I let all the hard-chargers do as they please. And I had a
GREAT RACE! I think I finished the White Pine in about 2:20 that year, maybe
14th overall (ballpark).

One or two others fit in with this style just fine and we skied perfectly
together. We caught several exploders.

It was quite a fun learning event for me. As I was doing these new-style
uphills I noticed that I could keep the speed up quite nicely even while skiing
ever-so-gently. I paid very close attention to putting a flat ski right under
me and just keeping the skis swimming, moving, up the hill but without strain
and I rolled OK.

A funny thing is that in the last 4km I couldn't take it anymore---we hit the
last 1km long steady medium uphill and I just took off. I just love them
uphills! I dropped who I was with but then hit the top and was faced with a 3k
field to finish thru: all with a huge headwind. Man, THAT HURT so bad. I was
swearing the whole time. What a moron. I could've rotated with my rival that
whole way. Instead I basically started the sprint at 4k to go. It wasn't a bonk
but it was its own education: that kind of pain isn't worth anything but
serious wages.

Anyway, since then I've helped several medium-fit friends ski nice marathons
(who'd asked for advice) by reminding them of the ironclad rules: eat, drink a
lot at every pit, and NEVER USE THE PEDAL. Once you get a few successes under
your belt that way, and lots more hours in and can say you're buff and ready
then start adding pedal...but never miss the feeds/drinks.

--

Jeff Potter
****
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On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 11:04:23 -0500, Jeff Potter
wrote:


I was inspired particularly by seeing marathon winners
on video just stopping
and drinking multiple cups at every feed.

What races did you see this in? Where can we see the video?

JT

Your analysis sounds right -- that your main problem was going too fast up
the hills -- especially given the slow conditions.

Onno Oerlemans wrote
My feeling is that pushing myself on those hills
(not to aerobic exhaustion, but to severe lactic build-up),
did me in for the end of the race.

it's long seemed to me that skate races, though
faster, are harder than classic races.

Other than hills and slow snow, I think another reason is that a more
athletic group of _skiers_ self-selects to attempt to _skate_ a 50 km
course. Most people who want to just try to "get thru the course somehow"
on the Keskinada 50K are going to try it with Classic technique. I think
the C wave in the Freestyle race is at a different level of athleticism than
the C wave in the Keskinada Classic race. So even if you want to go slower
like your classic pace, you feel pushed psychologically by what all these
other "mid-packers" are able to do.

In a classic race, I could more easily have
controlled my energy expenditure on those hills.

Yes there's no doubt that the technique for going slow up a hill is simpler
in classic striding.

I've spent the last month or two working on skating _slow_ up hills. It's
something that can be practiced, and there are some special technique
tricks. My current attempt at writing them down and giving the
justification in biomechanical physics is at:
http://www.roberts-1.com/xcski/skate...ndex.htm#ideas

If only I had respected the snow conditions and the abilities of my fellow
skiers more last Sunday, I would have taken the trouble to _apply_ those
ideas at Keskinada like I did at Lake Placid.

Ken

In article ,
"Ken Roberts" wrote:

I've spent the last month or two working on skating _slow_ up hills. It's
something that can be practiced, and there are some special technique
tricks. My current attempt at writing them down and giving the
justification in biomechanical physics is at:
http://www.roberts-1.com/xcski/skate...ndex.htm#ideas

Why not master the "herringbone skate"? It's my "granny gear" technique.
I found it to be particularly valuable in the mid-pack crushes on crowded
hills early in the Birkie. I would actually feel like I was getting a rest.

I bonked last year at the end of the 45km classic - but the main
reason was that it was so goddam cold all the food was frozen, so I
couldn't eat it!

And, I just haven't gotten the hang of warming a powerbar under my
windbriefs, yanking it out, and sticking it in my mouth. Probably
never will.

bt