Swix Steel Brush Or Not?

I was reading Swix's wax recommendation for the Birkie. The writing
says the Swix Steel Brush will open up structure and the pores of the
base. They suggest a softer copper brush (Toko) will not have the same
result. However I remember reading on Zachs' website the ski base
after stone grinding is like a scab. A steel brush should never be
used on a base. More often than not my skis are slower than other
racers. I'm pretty sure the bases aren't sealed but perhaps they are
clogged as Swix says. Anyone have any luck with the Swix Steel Brush
or have any thoughts about it's use. Thanks.

ADK Skier wrote:
I was reading Swix's wax recommendation for the Birkie. The writing
says the Swix Steel Brush will open up structure and the pores of the
base. They suggest a softer copper brush (Toko) will not have the same
result.

There are several different Swix steel brushes... I'm not sure which
one you read about.

However I remember reading on Zachs' website the ski base
after stone grinding is like a scab. A steel brush should never be
used on a base.

You probably read wrong. This is what he wrote in 2006:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.s...=en&lnk=gst&q=

More often than not my skis are slower than other
racers.

There are lots of reasons for slow skis. The brush you use is
probably very low on the list. I'm saying it's the case with your
skis, but unfortunately many skis just suck, even if you do everything
right in terms of matching flex to your weight, structure, waxing,
etc.

I don't know if there's really an unbiased study to answer the steel
vs. copper vs. bronze brush question, but a few years ago Zach modified
his view about steel and became a fan (and seller) of Swix's oval wild
boar brush (T0198B). Finn Sisu shop really likes what I think is the
rectangular version of it and has sold a bunch. The thing Zach strongly
suggested was taking the edge off the wild boar before using it on good
skis, first with a grinder, then by working it in on junk skis for
about an hour. The idea is to get it to a point where it doesn't undo
the grind. I was in his shop last season and can attest to his using
it directly after scraping, followed by Swix's stiff oval black nylon
brush (T099B). His comment was those two are all one typically needs.
Unfortunately, that info is not on his current website, tho perhaps a
google search might turn up the old one. For the Swix brushes, see
http://www.swixsport.com/eway/defaul...6 118:3:::0:0

Gene


ADK Skier wrote:

I was reading Swix's wax recommendation for the Birkie. The writing
says the Swix Steel Brush will open up structure and the pores of the
base. They suggest a softer copper brush (Toko) will not have the same
result. However I remember reading on Zachs' website the ski base
after stone grinding is like a scab. A steel brush should never be
used on a base. More often than not my skis are slower than other
racers. I'm pretty sure the bases aren't sealed but perhaps they are
clogged as Swix says. Anyone have any luck with the Swix Steel Brush
or have any thoughts about it's use. Thanks.

Andrew Lee (correction):
I'm NOT saying it's the case with your
skis, but unfortunately many skis just suck, even if you do everything
right in terms of matching flex to your weight, structure, waxing,
etc.

On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 15:27:50 -0800 (PST), Andrew Lee
wrote:

There are lots of reasons for slow skis. The brush you use is
probably very low on the list. I'm saying it's the case with your
skis, but unfortunately many skis just suck, even if you do everything
right in terms of matching flex to your weight, structure, waxing,
etc.

Yeah, but I think part of the probably is that the harsher metal
brushes can actually fuzz up the bases and make them very slow in cold
or new snow conditions.

On Feb 19, 5:19*pm, ADK Skier wrote:
I was reading Swix's wax recommendation for the Birkie. The writing
says the Swix Steel Brush will open up structure and the pores of the
base. They suggest a softer copper brush (Toko) will not have the same
result. However I remember reading on Zachs' website the ski base
after stone grinding is like a scab. A steel brush should never be
used on a base. More often than not my skis are slower than other
racers. I'm pretty sure the bases aren't sealed but perhaps they are
clogged as Swix says. Anyone have any luck with the Swix Steel Brush
or have any thoughts about it's use. Thanks.

Doug, T0188B oval fine steel. Break it in with a protocol similar to
what Gene suggests or get creative on your own. I brushed the concrete
floor in my basement for about 30 minutes, and quite aggressively at
that. Dull it to the point where, as Zach says, it won't leave scratch
marks when you run it up your arm. Use it before wax and for brushing
out any wax, except for powder, of course. You're welcome to test mine
any time. It's the ONLY brush I've used for the last 3 seasons aside
from a dedicated powder horsehair. And yeah, I vacuumed the brush
thoroughly before I took it to skis after filling it with concrete
dust...

On Feb 19, 10:39*pm, "m.wynn" wrote:

I brushed the concrete floor in my basement for about 30 minutes

Okay, now I'm really confused....this is how I usually structure my
skis.....

On Feb 20, 9:31*am, highpeaksnordic wrote:
On Feb 19, 10:39*pm, "m.wynn" wrote:

I brushed the concrete floor in my basement for about 30 minutes

Okay, now I'm really confused....this is how I usually structure my
skis.....

Bob,
Thanks for the info. I actually think it was Nat Brown and not Zach
who said never touch a stone ground base with a steel brush. You had
mentioned early this season ski flex was most important followed by
grind and wax. However I think when you bomb on the wax it can a lot
greater than the percentage you gave. When the skis really drag I feel
it can be as much as a 5% disadvantage. These are the days I call
voodoo wax days when it's mind boggling how bad my skis run. I feel
there is another characteristic of fast running skis and after a lot
of years I would swear it's has something to do with static buildup. A
fellow skier friend of mine never irons in his race day wax without
using Toko Moly first. He says he never has crappy skis. All I can do
is give it a try. See you at the Empire State Games this weekend.

On Feb 20, 10:45*am, ADK Skier wrote:


However I think when you bomb on the wax the skis really drag

There certain are those kinds of days, where wax makes all the
difference. I have a pair of perfectly flexed and ground skis w/ F-31
Violet on them. Kobak had his old skis w/ F-31 Pink and he ran away
from me on the downhills - in this case it was all wax. At several
races this year, there was little apparent difference between waxes
and top coats for the same two pairs of skis.

fellow skier never irons in his race day wax without using Toko Moly

Moly-based antistatic waxes are the best kept secret out there. Why
more people don't use them is beyond me. I've used the Star Map Black
and Map 200 for years - great waxes, the Map Black is a pain to use
correctly but worth it. The Toko line are great products Why do you
think Swix jumped on the moly based wax wagon a few years ago?

C U tomorrow.

On Feb 20, 5:52*pm, highpeaksnordic wrote:
On Feb 20, 10:45*am, ADK Skier wrote:

However I think when you bomb on the wax the skis really drag

There certain are those kinds of days, where wax makes all the
difference. *I have a pair of perfectly flexed and ground skis w/ F-31
Violet on them. *Kobak had his old skis w/ F-31 Pink and he ran away
from me on the downhills - in this case it was all wax. *At several
races this year, there was little apparent difference between waxes
and top coats for the same two pairs of skis.

fellow skier never irons in his race day wax without using Toko Moly

Moly-based antistatic waxes are the best kept secret out there. *Why
more people don't use them is beyond me. *I've used the Star Map Black
and Map 200 for years - great waxes, the Map Black is a pain to use
correctly but worth it. *The Toko line are great products *Why do you
think Swix jumped on the moly based wax wagon a few years ago?

C U tomorrow.

This thread has talked about a couple different issues- brushes, moly
waxes, and wax effect on ski speed.

As far as brushes go, I have not seen any difference between the soft
Toko copper brush and the soft Swix steel brush.
For years I used the Toko with great success- soft copper and black
horsehair was about all I ever used. Zach used to comment on the great
condition of the skis I would send to him. I have been using the Swix
recently and it seems to work about the same as the Toko. I have not
sent any skis to Zach recently, but I believe the bases are in the
same condition as if I had used the Toko and the wax seems to come off
the same.

I do agree that the wrong wax can have a greater effect on ski speed
than sometimes stated. I think this is only the case when the wax is
way off, and does not usually happen if the proper procedures are
followed. The problem seems to happen most often when skis are waxed
too warm. It is much easier to make a ski that is waxed too cold work
in warmer conditions than it is to make a ski waxed too warm work in
much colder conditions. The same is true with structure- much easier
to add before a race than take away. I have learned to always suggest
colder wax and less structure when trying to predict the wax of the
day. Also go with more fluoro except in extreme cold.

I do agree with Bob, and I hate doing that(lol), but moly products are
great. Again almost always helps and almost never hurts. I have an
interesting story about static electricity and skis. There was a high
school race on the alpine trails at Bristol Mountain a bunch of years
ago- I think Leah was a junior, so I guess it was like 8 years ago.The
course was all man made snow. It was at night and some of the trails
were well lit and some of them were a little on the dark side. Leah
came flying by a bunch of spectators, and as she went by us we saw
sparks flying off the bottom of her skis!! I was sure it was because
she was skiing so fast, but then realized that some of the skiers
behind her had the same thing going on. As some of the slower skiers
went by, the same thing did not happen. I think the conditions were
just right for seeing this- only saw some of it one other time, but
not to the same degree. Her skis did have a moly undercoat that day,
but it was covered by a HF wax without moly. I believe that most
people are using moly final coats on man made snow now.

Joe