Crossover and Crossunder

yunlong wrote:
VtSkier wrote:
(snip)

Have you done that yourself?

It is a standard practice of flatboarding; we call it "slant slipping."


No thanks.


Why? It is easier (less tiring) on long traverse, and the weight on the
uphill ski is already facilitating the "early weight transfer," thus
enables the skier to turn downhill whenever he/she wants it, and
slipping is safer technique than skidding.

The "slant slipping," is faster, more stable, and more maneuverable, so
it's a much versatile technique than simple "side slipping" or
skidding.

Sounds like "falling leaf" to me. Watch a patroller with
a sled sometime. Also works great without a sled.

"Bill Griffiths" wkgriff@ix_dot_netcom_dot_com wrote in message

17:17:45 -0700, "foot2foot" wrote:

Thank you. Yes no question. To turn right, your body simply
*must* be on the right side of the skis, however slight or
extreme. And also vice versa.

Not body, center of mass.

Whatever. Make it more complicated than it is so the
average guy can't get it and gives up like 90 percent do.

Not skis, ski. Outside ski. Singular.

No reason for this at all. If you wanted to you could
ski on the inside ski exclusively, but you'd need to
be crossed over it (on the inside of it).

Not on all terrain.

Huh?


Not at all speeds.

Huh?


Not during the entire course of the turn.

Uh huh, if you're in between turns, maybe not, or
before the turn really gets started. Otherwise, no
question, it's a must.


So the one-word answer is "no."

Not even close. It's a non question. Your body must be
on the inside of the turn, or, to turn right your body must
be on the right side of the skis. Or, if you please, *most*
of your body must be.


--
Bill Griffiths
"The fool hath said in his heart, there is no such thing as justice."
Hobbes

foot2foot wrote:
......

Not even close. It's a non question. Your body must be
on the inside of the turn, or, to turn right your body must
be on the right side of the skis. Or, if you please, *most*
of your body must be.

Not really, snowplow turn turns with the body in the middle of two
skis, and "skate turn" turns on the ski that skates, and "garland turn"
turns without crossing the "fall line," etc.

The "must be" is only true when you place/keep the skis parallel
together.

Methinks the skiers nowadays need to distinguish the difference between
a "turn" and a "changing direction."


IS

VtSkier wrote:
yunlong wrote:
VtSkier wrote:
(snip)

Have you done that yourself?

It is a standard practice of flatboarding; we call it "slant
slipping."

No thanks.

Why? It is easier (less tiring) on long traverse, and the
weight on the uphill ski is already facilitating the "early
weight transfer," thus enables the skier to turn downhill
whenever he/she wants it, and slipping is safer technique
than skidding.

The "slant slipping," is faster, more stable, and more
maneuverable, so it's a much versatile technique than simple
"side slipping" or skidding.

Sounds like "falling leaf" to me. Watch a patroller with
a sled sometime. Also works great without a sled.

"Falling leaf" is a maneuver that a skier zigzags back and forth down a
steep hill without "turning," i.e. the skier must slip backward
sometimes, and to slip backward with a sled is not just impractical but
also a dangerous move, are you sure that's how patrollers handle the
run with a sled?


IS

yunlong wrote:
VtSkier wrote:
yunlong wrote:
VtSkier wrote:
(snip)

Have you done that yourself?

It is a standard practice of flatboarding; we call it "slant
slipping."

No thanks.

Why? It is easier (less tiring) on long traverse, and the
weight on the uphill ski is already facilitating the "early
weight transfer," thus enables the skier to turn downhill
whenever he/she wants it, and slipping is safer technique
than skidding.

The "slant slipping," is faster, more stable, and more
maneuverable, so it's a much versatile technique than simple
"side slipping" or skidding.

Sounds like "falling leaf" to me. Watch a patroller with
a sled sometime. Also works great without a sled.

"Falling leaf" is a maneuver that a skier zigzags back and forth down
a steep hill without "turning," i.e. the skier must slip backward
sometimes, and to slip backward with a sled is not just impractical
but also a dangerous move, are you sure that's how patrollers handle
the run with a sled?


Yes, that is exactly how a patroller handles a toboggan. If you are
sideslipping steeper terrain without doing a falling leaf the snow will
build rather quickly in front of your skis. Falling leaf, done properly,
releases the snow one side, then the other as needed. Its a basic part of
the on hill orientation, you don't get in if you can't demonstrate it both
with a loaded and unloaded toboggan.

Sources close to the investigation reveal that, on Tue, 26 Apr 2005
23:02:42 -0700, "foot2foot" wrote:


"Bill Griffiths" wkgriff@ix_dot_netcom_dot_com wrote in message

17:17:45 -0700, "foot2foot" wrote:

Thank you. Yes no question. To turn right, your body simply
*must* be on the right side of the skis, however slight or
extreme. And also vice versa.

Not body, center of mass.

Whatever. Make it more complicated than it is so the
average guy can't get it and gives up like 90 percent do.

Body is imprecise. My body may be simultaneously to the left of my
left ski, over my left ski, between my skis, over my right ski, and to
the right of my right ski.

If beginners have difficulty with CoM, that is not my problem. I'm
not a beginner, and I really am more comfortable with CoM, so there is
no need to dumb it down for me. And I'm not an instructor, so I don't
have to worry about expressing it to beginners.

Not skis, ski. Outside ski. Singular.

No reason for this at all. If you wanted to you could
ski on the inside ski exclusively, but you'd need to
be crossed over it (on the inside of it).

You seem to have missed my point. If your CoM is on the inside of the
inside ski, then it is also on the inside of the outside ski.

My point was that the CoM may be between the skis, which your original
usage of "skis" ruled out. Which brings up:

Counterexample 1: Beginners doing wedge turns keep their CoM close to
the middle of the wedge.

Not on all terrain.

Huh?

Counterexample 2: Stop on top of a bump with tips and tails in the
air; do the twist; watch your skis turn both ways while your CoM
remains motionless. Proceed slowly from bump to bump, making a single
twist on each without stopping.

Not at all speeds.

Huh?

You can only move your CoM to the inside of the inside ski if the
combination of speed and turn radius generates enough centrifugal
force. So:

Counterexample 3: Proceed *slowly* down a gentle run; roll your skis
from edge to edge; feel your CoM remain midway between your skis as
you make slow long-radius turns.

Not during the entire course of the turn.

Uh huh, if you're in between turns, maybe not, or
before the turn really gets started. Otherwise, no
question, it's a must.

"before the turn really gets started" or, better, in the transition
from one turn to the next, lots of things happen. Even if you want
them to happen simultaneously, they won't.

Depending on your definition of where one turn ends and the next
begins, your CoM can cross(over|under) either just before or just
after the start of the turn, putting it briefly on the outside.

So the one-word answer is "no."

Not even close. It's a non question. Your body must be
on the inside of the turn, or, to turn right your body must
be on the right side of the skis. Or, if you please, *most*
of your body must be.

Since you explicitly concede the start of the turn, I don't see how
you can say "It's a non question." That one exception alone is enough
to refute the "*must* be". It is too sweeping.

--
Bill Griffiths
"The fool hath said in his heart, there is no such thing as justice." Hobbes

yunlong wrote:
VtSkier wrote:

yunlong wrote:

VtSkier wrote:

(snip)

Have you done that yourself?

It is a standard practice of flatboarding; we call it "slant

slipping."

No thanks.

Why? It is easier (less tiring) on long traverse, and the
weight on the uphill ski is already facilitating the "early
weight transfer," thus enables the skier to turn downhill
whenever he/she wants it, and slipping is safer technique
than skidding.

The "slant slipping," is faster, more stable, and more
maneuverable, so it's a much versatile technique than simple
"side slipping" or skidding.

Sounds like "falling leaf" to me. Watch a patroller with
a sled sometime. Also works great without a sled.


"Falling leaf" is a maneuver that a skier zigzags back and forth down a
steep hill without "turning," i.e. the skier must slip backward
sometimes, and to slip backward with a sled is not just impractical but
also a dangerous move, are you sure that's how patrollers handle the
run with a sled?

You bet, see Norm's post on the same subject.

"Bill Griffiths" wrote in message

If beginners have difficulty with CoM, that is not my problem. I'm
not a beginner, and I really am more comfortable with CoM, so there is
no need to dumb it down for me. And I'm not an instructor, so I don't
have to worry about expressing it to beginners.

Here, I'll use "body" because most of the readers of this
type of thread will be new or newer skiers.

Too much "technical" terminology tends to put a newbie off.
That's why I try to make things as simple as possible.


You seem to have missed my point. If your CoM is on the inside of the
inside ski, then it is also on the inside of the outside ski.

Have to agree with that. I guess I missed the whole direction of
this point you were making.

My point was that the CoM may be between the skis, which your original
usage of "skis" ruled out. Which brings up:

Counterexample 1: Beginners doing wedge turns keep their CoM close to
the middle of the wedge.

Their body is crossed over *either* ski, as such, they're
crossed over whichever ski they use as the outside ski.
Your body has to be on the inside of the skis. In this case
your body is *already* on the inside of either ski. You
can turn either way without crossing over. You already
are crossed over.

That's the convenience of the wedge. It provides crossover
automatically. That's why it's best to build a beginner turn off
the wedge, even if you only keep the skier in an actual
"wedge turn" for only minutes, if not even seconds, then move
them to parallel.

Not on all terrain.

Huh?

Counterexample 2: Stop on top of a bump with tips and tails in the
air; do the twist; watch your skis turn both ways while your CoM
remains motionless. Proceed slowly from bump to bump, making a single
twist on each without stopping.

Once the motion begins, inertia tries to throw the skier's
body to the outside of the turn, however slight this inertia
is. This physical law can't just be ignored. You must
counteract it with body position to the inside of the turn,
however slight. Whether it's the body that crosses over
the skis, or the skis that crossed under the body, the principle
is the same.


You can only move your CoM to the inside of the inside ski if the
combination of speed and turn radius generates enough centrifugal
force. So:

Inertia, or the street term, "centrifugal force", is always present
if the skier is in motion and then tries to change the direction
in which he's going. However slight, it's there, and it must
be counteracted. Even if it's a nanometer, you must be on the
inside of the turn to oppose inertia. Otherwise you would fall.

Counterexample 3: Proceed *slowly* down a gentle run; roll your skis
from edge to edge; feel your CoM remain midway between your skis as
you make slow long-radius turns.

You're crossing the skis under the body. Regardless, the body
must be on the inside of the turn, when the actual turn happens.
In this situation, or method or whatever, there are times when
the skis aren't turning.

Even in the long radius case, your body *must* be to the
inside to oppose inertia. It's just that you don't realize it is
I suppose. You can't escape this basic physical law.


Not during the entire course of the turn.

Uh huh, if you're in between turns, maybe not, or
before the turn really gets started. Otherwise, no
question, it's a must.

"before the turn really gets started" or, better, in the transition
from one turn to the next, lots of things happen. Even if you want
them to happen simultaneously, they won't.

If you're transitioning between turns, you aren't turning at
that moment, you're going straight. Otherwise you'd fall
to the oustide of the turn.

Depending on your definition of where one turn ends and the next
begins, your CoM can cross(over|under) either just before or just
after the start of the turn, putting it briefly on the outside.


You can not ever have your body on the outside of the skis,
in agreement with the direction of inertia, or else you'll fall
to the outside. You have to oppose it to the inside of the skis
if you're turning at all.

If you're turning *at all*, inertia wants to oppose you. If
you're not turning, it does as it wants to, it causes you to
continue in the direction you are already going.

So the one-word answer is "no."

Not even close. It's a non question. Your body must be
on the inside of the turn, or, to turn right your body must
be on the right side of the skis. Or, if you please, *most*
of your body must be.

Since you explicitly concede the start of the turn, I don't see how
you can say "It's a non question." That one exception alone is enough
to refute the "*must* be". It is too sweeping.

You're not turning at this moment, you're going straight, or
else you'd fall. There's really no way around inertia. It must
be opposed if you want to turn. The only way to opposed it
is to position your body, or center of mass, against it, to the
inside of the skis.

Thanks a lot for the replies Bill. It's a good discussion.

foot2foot wrote:
"Bill Griffiths" wrote in message


If beginners have difficulty with CoM, that is not my problem. I'm
not a beginner, and I really am more comfortable with CoM, so there is
no need to dumb it down for me. And I'm not an instructor, so I don't
have to worry about expressing it to beginners.


Here, I'll use "body" because most of the readers of this
type of thread will be new or newer skiers.

Too much "technical" terminology tends to put a newbie off.
That's why I try to make things as simple as possible.


You seem to have missed my point. If your CoM is on the inside of the
inside ski, then it is also on the inside of the outside ski.


Have to agree with that. I guess I missed the whole direction of
this point you were making.


My point was that the CoM may be between the skis, which your original
usage of "skis" ruled out. Which brings up:

Counterexample 1: Beginners doing wedge turns keep their CoM close to
the middle of the wedge.


Their body is crossed over *either* ski, as such, they're
crossed over whichever ski they use as the outside ski.
Your body has to be on the inside of the skis. In this case
your body is *already* on the inside of either ski. You
can turn either way without crossing over. You already
are crossed over.

That's the convenience of the wedge. It provides crossover
automatically. That's why it's best to build a beginner turn off
the wedge, even if you only keep the skier in an actual
"wedge turn" for only minutes, if not even seconds, then move
them to parallel.


Not on all terrain.

Huh?

Counterexample 2: Stop on top of a bump with tips and tails in the
air; do the twist; watch your skis turn both ways while your CoM
remains motionless. Proceed slowly from bump to bump, making a single
twist on each without stopping.


Once the motion begins, inertia tries to throw the skier's
body to the outside of the turn, however slight this inertia
is. This physical law can't just be ignored. You must
counteract it with body position to the inside of the turn,
however slight. Whether it's the body that crosses over
the skis, or the skis that crossed under the body, the principle
is the same.


You can only move your CoM to the inside of the inside ski if the
combination of speed and turn radius generates enough centrifugal
force. So:


Inertia, or the street term, "centrifugal force", is always present
if the skier is in motion and then tries to change the direction
in which he's going. However slight, it's there, and it must
be counteracted. Even if it's a nanometer, you must be on the
inside of the turn to oppose inertia. Otherwise you would fall.


Counterexample 3: Proceed *slowly* down a gentle run; roll your skis
from edge to edge; feel your CoM remain midway between your skis as
you make slow long-radius turns.


You're crossing the skis under the body. Regardless, the body
must be on the inside of the turn, when the actual turn happens.
In this situation, or method or whatever, there are times when
the skis aren't turning.

Even in the long radius case, your body *must* be to the
inside to oppose inertia. It's just that you don't realize it is
I suppose. You can't escape this basic physical law.


Not during the entire course of the turn.

Uh huh, if you're in between turns, maybe not, or
before the turn really gets started. Otherwise, no
question, it's a must.

"before the turn really gets started" or, better, in the transition
from one turn to the next, lots of things happen. Even if you want
them to happen simultaneously, they won't.


If you're transitioning between turns, you aren't turning at
that moment, you're going straight. Otherwise you'd fall
to the oustide of the turn.


Depending on your definition of where one turn ends and the next
begins, your CoM can cross(over|under) either just before or just
after the start of the turn, putting it briefly on the outside.



You can not ever have your body on the outside of the skis,
in agreement with the direction of inertia, or else you'll fall
to the outside. You have to oppose it to the inside of the skis
if you're turning at all.

If you're turning *at all*, inertia wants to oppose you. If
you're not turning, it does as it wants to, it causes you to
continue in the direction you are already going.


So the one-word answer is "no."

Not even close. It's a non question. Your body must be
on the inside of the turn, or, to turn right your body must
be on the right side of the skis. Or, if you please, *most*
of your body must be.

Since you explicitly concede the start of the turn, I don't see how
you can say "It's a non question." That one exception alone is enough
to refute the "*must* be". It is too sweeping.


You're not turning at this moment, you're going straight, or
else you'd fall. There's really no way around inertia. It must
be opposed if you want to turn. The only way to opposed it
is to position your body, or center of mass, against it, to the
inside of the skis.

Thanks a lot for the replies Bill. It's a good discussion.

By and large I agree with this stuff. I'll even let you
off the hook when you call centrifugal force a "street
term". It isn't and it's not properly the same as inertia.
But I understand where you are coming from.

Then I like to share an observation I've made on a number
of occasions.

Some people think they can ski without instruction -OR-
they maybe think they should get "comfortable" with their
equipment before they take a lesson, or, or...

I'm often at the top at the end of the day. My job is to
try to get the skiers to vacate before patrol does TCP
(trail closing procedure). It happens that occasionally
we get a never-ever who takes the last cabin and expects
to ski a green trail (which has become very blue with
skier traffic by the end of the day) to the bottom and
enjoy the setting sun (setting sun = flat light). Someone
told him/her that by weighting the outside ski, or what
will become the outside ski in a turn, the will turn
opposite to that ski and be able to control speed down
the mountain.

This person will be bent nearly double at the waist, his/
her legs will be as straight as possible and a fairly
decent wedge is being held in this position.

Now, to get your weight on your outside ski from that
position, don't you have to move your body over that
ski? Well, that's what is tried, and much of the time,
they can actually make a turn from that position. CoM
is over, and sometimes beyond over the outside ski so
that they are in fact making a turn with their weight
OUTSIDE of the outside ski. Well some of the time. What
usually happens is that since they are actually riding
the outside edge of the outside ski, and in a very
slow turn on very smooth terrain, it sort of works.

But did I mention that the trail is not smooth? So what
usually happens is that a few turns can be made this way
and then some irregularity catches that outside edge
and a tumble results. This completely destroys any
confidence they had to begin with (they had to have
some or they wouldn't have ridden the gondola at 4:00
in the afternoon. It's probably 4:30 or 4:45 by the
time I get to them. They are so crossed up, discouraged
and exhausted that I just call for a ride down for them.

I used to be able to give them a BYD (brighten your day)
card for a lesson the next day. But management has
tightened up on such things. I would think it would be
worth the price of a lesson to try and keep this skier.
He/she will never be back after that experience unless
they have someone prodding them.

So, I've seen someone on skis (I won't say a skier) make
turns without crossover/under and without having their
weight/CoM to the inside of their skis. It can be done,
I don't advocate it and it ain't pretty.

VtSkier

VtSkier wrote:
yunlong wrote:
VtSkier wrote:
yunlong wrote:
VtSkier wrote:

(snip)

Have you done that yourself?

It is a standard practice of flatboarding; we call it
"slant slipping."

No thanks.

Why? It is easier (less tiring) on long traverse, and the
weight on the uphill ski is already facilitating the "early
weight transfer," thus enables the skier to turn downhill
whenever he/she wants it, and slipping is safer technique
than skidding.

The "slant slipping," is faster, more stable, and more
maneuverable, so it's a much versatile technique than
simple "side slipping" or skidding.

Sounds like "falling leaf" to me. Watch a patroller with
a sled sometime. Also works great without a sled.

"Falling leaf" is a maneuver that a skier zigzags back and
forth down a steep hill without "turning," i.e. the skier
must slip backward sometimes, and to slip backward with a
sled is not just impractical but also a dangerous move, are
you sure that's how patrollers handle the run with a sled?

You bet, see Norm's post on the same subject.

Not sure where is Norm's post on the same subject; nevertheless, though
they may do the zigzagging/switch back, but I don't think that they do
the "falling leaf." "Falling leaf," which is named after a snowboarding
maneuver, by definition, is slipping back and forth down a steep hill
without [S]-turning--changing the edges.

Slipping backward with a sled in a patroller's back is not just
impractical (the patroller has to turn facing the sled while skis/slips
backward), but dangerous (if the patroller's knees get locked by an
unfortunate step, say, they get bounced by a piece of ice chunk, he is
done for it; with 200~300 lbs. average weight of the sled plus the
person being transported bearing down on him, there's no recovery).

Are you sure you want to be on that sled?


IS