My toes still hurt

I bought Garmont Veloce boots last year - and yikes were they tight!
I had been assured that if they were comfortable when I bought them,
I'd hate them in 6 mos. So, I worked through it and they got better
until March when my big toenails fell off. :-(

I took the boots back to Boulder Ski Deals at the beginning of this
season since the first couple times out they were painful and it was
time to see what they would do. They fitted me with Raichle custom
inserts. Life is a lot better but my toes are still in pain at the
end of the day and keep me awake as I try to fall asleep. I do mostly
area skiing these days since I have 3 kids who either don't ski (he's
3) or are still in alpine skis because anything else is hard to
obtain- so I'm mostly going down.

One person- who didn't ski with me, btw- told me my toes hurt (last
year) because my boots don't fit and because I'm not doing a proper
tele turn. Now my boots fit and I haven't asked him about the
"proper" turn again, even though he is my physician. :-) Does it
sound like a fit issue still or am I doing something that makes my
toes jam into the front of my boot on my turns? Any clues at all
would be helpful. I, of course, can't tell if my turn is "proper"
since I'm the one doing them- but they certainly feel like the way I
was taught and people (strangers) often tell me I looked good coming
down- and I dont' think they're hitting on me. :-P


=====
Kate, http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~kolina/a...f-formula.html
Mom to Ursula (9!), Sage (6.5), Benno (3!!) "A successful person is
one who can lay a firm foundation with the bricks that others throw at
him or her." David Brinkley, News Journalist
http://listserv.uts.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/parent-l

Kate wrote:

I bought Garmont Veloce boots last year - and yikes were they tight!
I had been assured that if they were comfortable when I bought them,
I'd hate them in 6 mos. So, I worked through it and they got better
until March when my big toenails fell off. :-(

I took the boots back to Boulder Ski Deals at the beginning of this
season since the first couple times out they were painful and it was
time to see what they would do. They fitted me with Raichle custom
inserts. Life is a lot better but my toes are still in pain

Same kind of pain? Toenail related? Cut your toenails shorter. I'm a
slow learner - took me three straight years losing big toenails before I
learned to cut them short before first runs in the fall ... pretty dumb,
huh? Solved that problem, once I learned, though.

On 13 Feb 2004 18:15:44 -0800, (Kate) wrote:

I bought Garmont Veloce boots last year - and yikes were they tight!
I had been assured that if they were comfortable when I bought them,
I'd hate them in 6 mos. So, I worked through it and they got better
until March when my big toenails fell off. :-(

I took the boots back to Boulder Ski Deals at the beginning of this
season since the first couple times out they were painful and it was
time to see what they would do. They fitted me with Raichle custom
inserts. Life is a lot better but my toes are still in pain at the
end of the day and keep me awake as I try to fall asleep. I do mostly
area skiing these days since I have 3 kids who either don't ski (he's
3) or are still in alpine skis because anything else is hard to
obtain- so I'm mostly going down.

One person- who didn't ski with me, btw- told me my toes hurt (last
year) because my boots don't fit and because I'm not doing a proper
tele turn. Now my boots fit and I haven't asked him about the
"proper" turn again, even though he is my physician. :-) Does it
sound like a fit issue still or am I doing something that makes my
toes jam into the front of my boot on my turns? Any clues at all
would be helpful. I, of course, can't tell if my turn is "proper"
since I'm the one doing them- but they certainly feel like the way I
was taught and people (strangers) often tell me I looked good coming
down- and I dont' think they're hitting on me. :-P


=====
Kate, http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~kolina/a...f-formula.html
Mom to Ursula (9!), Sage (6.5), Benno (3!!) "A successful person is
one who can lay a firm foundation with the bricks that others throw at
him or her." David Brinkley, News Journalist
http://listserv.uts.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/parent-l


What type of boots did you use before? Also what type of bindings are
you using?
The reason I ask is that if you came from leather boots, you
are probably used to a much deeper turn than is necessary with your
new boots. That alone can put your toes into the end, but when coupled
with a modern high-power (relative to the bindings of yore) binding
equipped with a strong compression spring, your boots will compress a
little lengthwise in a deep turn. This will aggravate the toes jamming
into the end of the boot and likely squash the bellows onto the tops
of your feet.
The danger in using a too-large boot is not the packing out of
the liner after 6 months, making it even looser, but the fact that
your boots' only possible flex point (the bellows) does not line up
with the flex point of your foot. It sounds like the dealer steered
you in the correct direction.
The modern turn is much more upright with the heavier gear.
Try this: Stand on a flat area in your boots with skis on. Slide a
foot forward and one back a little. Now drive your knees downward
toward your skis. DON'T raise your rear heel deliberately to
accomplish this. Both ankles will flex and your heel should only raise
because your ankle can't flex any further. Practise this any time you
can while running straight. There should be no need to go so low that
your heel is pointing straight up. Gather your stance a bit (not so
much of a lead) and make sure your weight is evenly distributed
between skis.
Hopefully this will keep your heel a bit lower and lessen the
toe pinch. I realize that on steeps, you will be much lower and very
little will totally eliminate toe bashing completely. I found Rainey
bindings, powerful and good as they are, caused me a bit of grief
toe-wise (because of their power). G3 bindings don't do that to me. I
haven't skied too many others enough with plastic boots to make any
other fair comments. Other people with different boots and different
foot shapes and skiing styles will rave about other bindings and steer
clear of the ones I use. I find that Tele gear can be a highly
personal choice.
Have fun!

Kate wrote:
I bought Garmont Veloce boots last year - and yikes were they tight!
I had been assured that if they were comfortable when I bought them,
I'd hate them in 6 mos. So, I worked through it and they got better
until March when my big toenails fell off. :-(

I took the boots back to Boulder Ski Deals at the beginning of this
season since the first couple times out they were painful and it was
time to see what they would do. They fitted me with Raichle custom
inserts. Life is a lot better but my toes are still in pain at the
end of the day and keep me awake as I try to fall asleep. I do mostly
area skiing these days since I have 3 kids who either don't ski (he's
3) or are still in alpine skis because anything else is hard to
obtain- so I'm mostly going down.

One person- who didn't ski with me, btw- told me my toes hurt (last
year) because my boots don't fit and because I'm not doing a proper
tele turn. Now my boots fit and I haven't asked him about the
"proper" turn again, even though he is my physician. :-) Does it
sound like a fit issue still or am I doing something that makes my
toes jam into the front of my boot on my turns? Any clues at all
would be helpful. I, of course, can't tell if my turn is "proper"
since I'm the one doing them- but they certainly feel like the way I
was taught and people (strangers) often tell me I looked good coming
down- and I dont' think they're hitting on me. :-P


=====
Kate, http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~kolina/a...f-formula.html
Mom to Ursula (9!), Sage (6.5), Benno (3!!) "A successful person is
one who can lay a firm foundation with the bricks that others throw at
him or her." David Brinkley, News Journalist
http://listserv.uts.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/parent-l

Kate:

Over the last 10 years, I've bought 3 pairs of ski boots (both traditional
leather touring and plastic telemark) at Boulder Ski Deals. I always work
with their top boot fitter who has an excellent reputation in Colorado. Did
you work with him or one of the lesser experienced people? I have a hard to
fit foot, so I always require custom work on all of my boots.

Your problem does sound like a fit issue and the boots may be too short.
The toe box can be worked on a bit as can the liners. If you have a narrow
foot (Garmonts are lasted wide), you may have been fitted with too short of
a boot in order to fit your width.

Always use a top boot fitter and not any sales person.

Good luck.

Steve

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article ,
Kate wrote:
I bought Garmont Veloce boots last year - and yikes were they tight!
I had been assured that if they were comfortable when I bought them,
I'd hate them in 6 mos. So, I worked through it and they got better
until March when my big toenails fell off. :-(

I took the boots back to Boulder Ski Deals at the beginning of this
season since the first couple times out they were painful and it was
time to see what they would do. They fitted me with Raichle custom
inserts. Life is a lot better but my toes are still in pain at the
end of the day and keep me awake as I try to fall asleep. I do mostly
area skiing these days since I have 3 kids who either don't ski (he's
3) or are still in alpine skis because anything else is hard to
obtain- so I'm mostly going down.

One person- who didn't ski with me, btw- told me my toes hurt (last
year) because my boots don't fit and because I'm not doing a proper
tele turn. Now my boots fit and I haven't asked him about the
"proper" turn again, even though he is my physician. :-) Does it
sound like a fit issue still or am I doing something that makes my
toes jam into the front of my boot on my turns? Any clues at all
would be helpful. I, of course, can't tell if my turn is "proper"
since I'm the one doing them- but they certainly feel like the way I
was taught and people (strangers) often tell me I looked good coming
down- and I dont' think they're hitting on me. :-P


_ Boots should not hurt like that. If they do they don't fit.
Loosing toenails likely means the shells are too small. You
can try having them "punched", but I suspect that the Garmont
last is not a good match for your foot. Garmonts tend to be
have wide lasts and in general women have narrower heels than
men. I would suggest you at least go somewhere and try on a
Scarpa boot and a Crispi if you can find it. Were your Veloce's
the women's model?

_ Regardless of how bad your turn is your feet should not be
sliding forward enough to cause you to loose toenails. Some
questions:

1. What kind of sock do you wear in these boots? ( thick,
thin.. )

2. What kind of insole do you use?

3. How tight do you buckle your boots? Do you have
to make a choice between warm feet and boots buckled
tight enough for control? Can you wiggle your toes
when the boot's buckled?

4. What's your overall foot shape, narrow wide ?

5. When you flex the boot does your heel lift at all?

_ If you're determined to try and fix these boots, I would
suggest getting a custom insole. This will raise your heel
and effectively shorten your foot in the boot. If you already
have custom insoles, try adding a small lift at the heel.
One easy way to do this is to buy 1/8 " cork sheet and
cut out heel shapes.

_ On of the stupidest ideas that has permeated the ski world
is that having boots hurt is somehow acceptable. A boot
should never be uncomfortable when you leave the store,
snug yes, but uncomfortable no. If you can't wear it
in the store for a hour[1], it isn't going to get any more
comfortable on the slopes. Getting boots that really fit
can be a lot of work, but it is so worth it. Part of it
is learning how a boot should really fit, something most
ski shops do a poor job of teaching you. It took me 30
years to really get it right. Here's some
rules of thumb I've picked up along the way.

If you have to crank the buckles hard for control, the
shell doesn't fit your foot.

You should be able to wiggle your toes at least a
little. A boot should lock your heel and arch in place,
but never put pressure on the toes.

Start with the thinnest socks you can find. If your
boot fits it will be plenty warm enough. Use slightly
thicker socks as the boot liner packs out.

No heel lift ever... No matter what you do
your heel should not move in the boot.

If it's easy to get your boots on, they are
probably too big, but they should feel fine once
you get them on.

I hope some of this rambling was useful.

_ Booker C. Bense

[1]- The store should suggest that you do that, anyplace
that tries to rush you doesn't deserve your money.

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[ lac.stanford.edu ]

_ On of the stupidest ideas that has permeated the ski world
is that having boots hurt is somehow acceptable. A boot

Maybe this comes from the alpine racing world. I hear racers use very
tight boots, a size or two below what they use for recreation skiing.
Laps in races don't last long.


Martin
--
"An ideal world is left as an exercise to the reader."
-Paul Graham, On Lisp

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 08:34:41 +0100, Martin Thornquist
wrote:

[ lac.stanford.edu ]

_ On of the stupidest ideas that has permeated the ski world
is that having boots hurt is somehow acceptable. A boot

Maybe this comes from the alpine racing world. I hear racers use very
tight boots, a size or two below what they use for recreation skiing.
Laps in races don't last long.

Sounds like competition rock climbers, who have to take off their
climbing shoes after each pitch.

Completely different from the fit you would want for all day climbing.

NASCAR vehicles are a bit different from street cars as well.

Don't get sucked into the idea that what works best for racing is what
works best for general use.

Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

[ Gary S. ]

Sounds like competition rock climbers, who have to take off their
climbing shoes after each pitch.

Not just competition. :-) Most crag climbers/boulderers I know, me
included, use tight shoes for bouldering and single-pitch climbing.
Few Norwegian cliffs are very steep, but we have lots of thin slab
climbing. Obviously wider shoes are used for long mountain routes.


Martin
--
"An ideal world is left as an exercise to the reader."
-Paul Graham, On Lisp

I bought Garmont Veloce boots last year - and yikes were they tight!
I had been assured that if they were comfortable when I bought them,
I'd hate them in 6 mos. So, I worked through it and they got better
until March when my big toenails fell off. :-(

I took the boots back to Boulder Ski Deals at the beginning of this
season since the first couple times out they were painful and it was
time to see what they would do. They fitted me with R-snip-


What type of boots did you use before? Also what type of bindings are
you using?
The reason I ask is that if you came from leather boots, you
are probably used to a much deeper turn than is necessary with your
new boots. That alone can put your toes into the end, but when coupled
with a modern high-power (relative to the bindings of yore) binding
equipped with a strong compression spring, your boots will compress a
little lengthwise in a deep turn. This will aggravate the toes jamming
into the end of the boot and likely squash the bellows onto the tops
of your feet.

I did use leather boots before and yes, I think that my turns were too
deep. I have G3 bindings so they are much more stable and intense
than than the V--- oh, what are those called? something that begins
with V that I also bought at Boulder Ski Deals....

Oh, and I did check my toenails- they werent' too long. One is
chronically weak since I got a stick in my nailbed about a year and a
half ago but yet the toenails still hurt. It's more like a bruising.


The danger in using a too-large boot is not the packing out of
the liner after 6 months, making it even looser, but the fact that
your boots' only possible flex point (the bellows) does not line up
with the flex point of your foot. It sounds like the dealer steered
you in the correct direction.

I wondered about that as I skied yesterday. I think it's in the right
spot. I have a wide foot so if anything, shoes and boots would end up
too long to accomodate the width.

The modern turn is much more upright with the heavier gear.
Try this: Stand on a flat area in your boots with skis on. Slide a
foot forward and one back a little. Now drive your knees downward
toward your skis. DON'T raise your rear heel deliberately to
accomplish this. Both ankles will flex and your heel should only raise
because your ankle can't flex any further. Practise this any time you
can while running straight. There should be no need to go so low that
your heel is pointing straight up. Gather your stance a bit (not so
much of a lead) and make sure your weight is evenly distributed
between skis.

I'm glad I read this before we headed out yesterday. I felt pretty
darned good for most of the day but when I got tired I felt pressure
on the lower toes and my turns got messier. It was pretty hard-packed
at Eldora- we avoided the black runs since they were solid ice or
really blown off.

I have a lot of parallel turn/edging habits left from my years of
alpine skis and willing use them in conditions like yesterday. I
rejoice in deep powder when I can use the skis the way they were
intended.

Hopefully this will keep your heel a bit lower and lessen the
toe pinch. I realize that on steeps, you will be much lower and very
little will totally eliminate toe bashing completely.

I think it was good that we stuck to the blues yesterday so we could
concentrate on technique. Exhaustion caused toe bashing later in teh
day though...

I found Rainey
bindings, powerful and good as they are, caused me a bit of grief
toe-wise (because of their power). G3 bindings don't do that to me. I
haven't skied too many others enough with plastic boots to make any
other fair comments. Other people with different boots and different
foot shapes and skiing styles will rave about other bindings and steer
clear of the ones I use. I find that Tele gear can be a highly
personal choice.

it is but it takes awhile to get used to any of it, doesn't it? I
dont' ski as much as I'd like since I have to juggle kids needs so
sometimes I wonder if I forget everything too often.

=====
Kate, http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~kolina/a...f-formula.html
Mom to Ursula (9!), Sage (6.5), Benno (3!!) "A successful person is
one
who can lay a firm foundation with the bricks that others throw at him
or her." David Brinkley, News Journalist
http://listserv.uts.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/parent-l

Booker C. Bense
Start with the thinnest socks you can find. If your
boot fits it will be plenty warm enough.

Uhm... melting frostbitten toes hurts like hell,
and the amputated ones may develpe severe
phantom pains... g

I mean, with r.s.backcountry, rather than
rec.downhill.coasting.at.some.stupid.resort, ,
I'd kind of assume that not all boots that fit
are always warm enough, never mind plentifully
so.

No heel lift ever... No matter what you do
your heel should not move in the boot.

Why? Blisters? Occasional or slight heel movement
shouldn't be an issue. Not with decent socks at
least, rather than the thinnest ones you can find.