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#11
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In article , MB *@*.* wrote: Booker C. Bense Start with the thinnest socks you can find. If your boot fits it will be plenty warm enough. _ Note. That recommendation is only for plastic boots with liners. Uhm... melting frostbitten toes hurts like hell, _ Done that and you're right. It was caused by boots that didn't fit. and the amputated ones may develpe severe phantom pains... g _ Missed that one so far. I mean, with r.s.backcountry, rather than rec.downhill.coasting.at.some.stupid.resort, , I'd kind of assume that not all boots that fit are always warm enough, never mind plentifully so. _ If the boot doesn't limit circulation warmth is generally even less of an issue in the BC because you're mostly working hard climbing. If you let your body do the job it will keep your feet plenty warm. If you buy plastic boots fit with thick or double socks this is what will happen. 1. The sock compresses as the day wears on your feet sweat. 2. You tighten the buckles to give more control. 3. Tightening the buckles limits circulation. 4. No warm blood == cold feet regardless of how much insulation you put on them. _ It's a vicious cycle, my feet are cold so I'll put more socks on which leads to less circulation.... If you have bad circulation or other problems, then I guess you'll have to figure something out. But my rationalization is that for most people extra socks or thick sock is generally the wrong thing to do. You only need extra insulation when you're standing still. I know from my own personal experience that once I went to buying boots that fit with the thinnest socks, my feet no longer get cold. I've done it both ways and I know which one works for me. _ If a plastic boot and thick liner aren't warm enough, I'd rather put extra insulation outside the boot and not compromise my control of the ski. No heel lift ever... No matter what you do your heel should not move in the boot. Why? Blisters? Occasional or slight heel movement shouldn't be an issue. Not with decent socks at least, rather than the thinnest ones you can find. _ Hey, I was just listing what works for me. If I want to control a ski with a telemark turn, no heel lift. Even with relatively light NNN/BC boots, I find that if I can get no heel lift, I ski with much more control. _ I think what I'm trying to get at is that there is this wrong headed notion in the ski world that comfort implies less control. IMHO, that's totally backwards, boots that don't hurt, are warm and fit properly actually give you more control. _ Booker C. Bense -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBQDO83WTWTAjn5N/lAQHrMQQArnoRLGEK2BN+NILlkMXwIkE1QR4HiaYg gWxCPibjLr2rBDZY7G6bUJPhZ04k/setsYMBzB21PdPj9jrPfobvsNuviw/giGeS NhOo8SAldULXCyLJ728gbnjv7vGxMlTk9+SLvCpSMj0JUrPU5a moYdogn58e6lfD zUkmKJKHafs= =vWbQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
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#12
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Booker C. Bense ,
Start with the thinnest socks you can find. If your boot fits it will be plenty warm enough. _ Note. That recommendation is only for plastic boots with liners. Liners come in different weights, and for a good reason. Regardless of whether the boots are plastic, rubber or leather. _ If the boot doesn't limit circulation warmth is generally even less of an issue in the BC because you're mostly working hard climbing. There's more to BC sking that just climbing. Eg the sea ice is pretty flat. Skiing there is BC skiing nevertheless, and is, quite often, heavy excercise too. If you let your body do the job it will keep your feet plenty warm. Sure, excercise drastically reduces the amount of insulation needed. Nevertheless, the extremites are at risk in cold-weather. A typical thinnish felt bootie/liner sure isn't (typically) enough alone for my feeet below -30C or so, although I think that I manage cold better than most of my mates. But, there's more to BC-skiing than just the skiing. Pauses, camp chores and whatever. On a multiday trip the toes need to survive the low-intensity activities too. Insulated gaitors may help, perhaps, but will hardly span the gap between low and high intensity insulation needs in cold weather. Imo, if at all practical, one should have several boots for different seasons and trip lenghts: Ranging from clumsy cold-weather boots with large volume lasts to more close fitting ones for milder conditions. 1. The sock compresses as the day wears on your feet sweat. Why should the liners compress less than the socks? Is, eg, felted and woven wool that different? Besides, the colder the conditions and the longer the trip, the more important it is to use vapour barrier liners. 2. You tighten the buckles to give more control. 3. Tightening the buckles limits circulation. Obviously, don't do that... _ I think what I'm trying to get at is that there is this wrong headed notion in the ski world that comfort implies less control. I guess I'm questioning the notion that relatively loosely fitting boots wouldn't be adequate for maintaining good control of the skis... |
#13
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
In article , MB *@*.* wrote: Booker C. Bense , Start with the thinnest socks you can find. If your boot fits it will be plenty warm enough. _ Note. That recommendation is only for plastic boots with liners. Liners come in different weights, and for a good reason. Regardless of whether the boots are plastic, rubber or leather. _ If the boot doesn't limit circulation warmth is generally even less of an issue in the BC because you're mostly working hard climbing. There's more to BC sking that just climbing. Eg the sea ice is pretty flat. Skiing there is BC skiing nevertheless, and is, quite often, heavy excercise too. _ Seems kind of pointless to pick boots for conditions you'll never see. While I probably should have put some disclaimers around my rants, I expect anybody skiing in the Artic will know better. If you let your body do the job it will keep your feet plenty warm. Sure, excercise drastically reduces the amount of insulation needed. Nevertheless, the extremites are at risk in cold-weather. A typical thinnish felt bootie/liner sure isn't (typically) enough alone for my feeet below -30C or so, although I think that I manage cold better than most of my mates. But, there's more to BC-skiing than just the skiing. Pauses, camp chores and whatever. On a multiday trip the toes need to survive the low-intensity activities too. Insulated gaitors may help, perhaps, but will hardly span the gap between low and high intensity insulation needs in cold weather. _ For multi-day trips I bring down booties and even on single day trips I bring a small square of foam for standing and sitting on. It makes a huge difference even in the relatively warm Sierra. Imo, if at all practical, one should have several boots for different seasons and trip lenghts: Ranging from clumsy cold-weather boots with large volume lasts to more close fitting ones for milder conditions. _ Well, I've got 8 pairs and I see your point, but the majority of the people buying plastic telemark boots are mostly skiing resorts with the occasional day trip into the backcountry. They are particularly ill-served by most socks sold as "skiing" socks at the various retailers. 1. The sock compresses as the day wears on your feet sweat. Why should the liners compress less than the socks? Is, eg, felted and woven wool that different? _ In a word yes. Felted wool is already largely compressed, after that's how you make felt. However, no recent plastic boot comes with felt liners. Most are either thinsulate and foam or thermoformable foam. Socks compress on the order of a day, liners on the order of a season or more and even then a lot less percentage than socks. the colder the conditions and the longer the trip, the more important it is to use vapour barrier liners. 2. You tighten the buckles to give more control. 3. Tightening the buckles limits circulation. Obviously, don't do that... _ But many people do and they don't question why... _ I think what I'm trying to get at is that there is this wrong headed notion in the ski world that comfort implies less control. I guess I'm questioning the notion that relatively loosely fitting boots wouldn't be adequate for maintaining good control of the skis... _ Sure if you only ski flat sea ice at -30c. Personally, I'm more interested in steep mountain slopes at less extreme temperatures more difficult snow conditions. Loose fitting boots suck rocks in those conditions. I'll include a disclaimer for north pole adventurers in future posts... _ Booker C. Bense -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBQDUO4mTWTAjn5N/lAQF+RwP9HrjDHJxlDPYwqCCwXfZ5/ScUoeJ7bOAH B/vL3dAJGgSLUJ+Jx2bVjHFykq1WnefqW9gFYlTCsUw2+Sn7101r LHYPdHae9FU9 LPqob0Xkm8yUu5VzOj4LA8bRLNhYFMS8fapor6RPSanIurNrVo n44dEe4e62J0Eo NtJgBJhwsqQ= =SNR9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
#14
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Booker C. Bense ,
_ Seems kind of pointless to pick boots for conditions you'll never see. While I probably should have put some disclaimers around my rants, I expect anybody skiing in the Artic will know better. Well, I guess this is my yearly apples vs oranges contribution to r.s.b... Perhaps a grumpy comment that there's more to bc skiing than telemark turns in the Sierras. Heck, where are they anyway? It doesn't need to be (Ant)Arctic to be a bit cold. You don't need to be headed for the Pole, or anything exotic, to be on the sea ice. On the contrary, actually. What comes to frostbite, the feet are particularily at risk on multiday trips in cold conditions. And, no, overtightening the buckle isn't the problem here, at least not with the typical bc-skiing boots g. http://www.nokianfootwear.fi/english...ive_kaira.html _ Sure if you only ski flat sea ice at -30c. Personally, I'm more interested in steep mountain slopes at less extreme temperatures more difficult snow conditions. While I occasionally ski on the sea, I agree it's kind of booring regarding the skiing technic. There are exceptions though, like piles of packed ice, or, especially, crossing open water with with loose ice flakes. Loose fitting boots suck rocks in those conditions. I don't see that loose boots are a problem in difficult steep conditions. If it's difficult, one can't go fast (well, maybe once...). High-speed downhill is of course loads of fun, and snug boots might matter here, but isn't that relevant if the question is whether one can climb a cliff face down at all. |
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