Salomon's New Classic Propulsion Binding and the Salomon Skate Wedge.

I saw some pics of the new Salomon Classic Propulsion binding on
Fasterskier. They're going back to one axis and a rubber flexor. A
good idea. I'll use my Pilot Classic for roller skiing. No chance to
malfunction without snow getting into the kevlar strap mechanism.
Oddly the pic of the new binding shows the tail piece of the binding
being really narrow. I'm not sure but it looks like the boot sole
rests on the ski itself. The ridge in the binding still fits into the
slot on the boot.There is also some writing saying ultra low binding.
Perhaps they acheive this with the boot sole contacting the ski and
not the plastic tail piece.

Secondly there was a video of the new Salomon Skating wedge on
Salomon's Nordic Facebook account. A Italian tech says they installed
the Salomon Wedge on all the skate skis and it was like night and day.
Does anyone have a clue what this wedge is. Hopefully it's not a
disaster like the Pilot Classic Binding. In defense of Salomon I'll
say I tried every NNN Classic boot Rossi, Alpina, Madshus, and Fisher.
They don't compare to the Salomon Pilot Carbon Classic boots in
comfort. The Salomon's have this free, effortless, rollover when
kicking. The NNN boots feel rigid and restricting when kicking. There
is this closer intereface with the ski NNN claims over the Salomon,
but my feet feel like they are resting on plywood with either the
Alpina top of the line Skate or Classic boots.

Photos of classic binding are at the following link, tho dark shots make
it hard to see clearly (such as if the pilot boot back pin will have
indent): http://www.facebook.com/album.php?ai...id=99067927679

I couldn't see the Wedge in the small video. Pre-release marketing to
build interest?

Gene



On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 14:17:46 -0700 (PDT)
Douglas wrote:

I saw some pics of the new Salomon Classic Propulsion binding on
Fasterskier. They're going back to one axis and a rubber flexor. A
good idea. I'll use my Pilot Classic for roller skiing. No chance to
malfunction without snow getting into the kevlar strap mechanism.
Oddly the pic of the new binding shows the tail piece of the binding
being really narrow. I'm not sure but it looks like the boot sole
rests on the ski itself. The ridge in the binding still fits into the
slot on the boot.There is also some writing saying ultra low binding.
Perhaps they acheive this with the boot sole contacting the ski and
not the plastic tail piece.

Secondly there was a video of the new Salomon Skating wedge on
Salomon's Nordic Facebook account. A Italian tech says they installed
the Salomon Wedge on all the skate skis and it was like night and day.
Does anyone have a clue what this wedge is. Hopefully it's not a
disaster like the Pilot Classic Binding. In defense of Salomon I'll
say I tried every NNN Classic boot Rossi, Alpina, Madshus, and Fisher.
They don't compare to the Salomon Pilot Carbon Classic boots in
comfort. The Salomon's have this free, effortless, rollover when
kicking. The NNN boots feel rigid and restricting when kicking. There
is this closer intereface with the ski NNN claims over the Salomon,
but my feet feel like they are resting on plywood with either the
Alpina top of the line Skate or Classic boots.

I wrote a review of the Wedges on www.xcskiforum.com , maybe even cross-posted here.

Wedges? Night and day, yes, BUT mostly when using Pilot II boots, AND the Salomon skis which already have a backslope relative to the snow surface, under the binding (ski height taper).
IMO, the wedge is a patch-up for a problem you don't get with, for instance, sister brand Atomic. I have older top end models of both, and the difference is, well, a wedge thinkness.
I spoke a salomon racer in January, he was the first to tell me of the wedges. He was well informed with the dragginess of Equipe 10 ski tips that I was asking him about. The wedges he said, helped.
I got to try that in February, and indeed, it helped. But ONLY when I was really driving the skis with authority (race style), and without the pilot II boots, I was barely noticing the advantage. Together though, and racing, WOW... I thought my Adidas/older Equipe10 was a winning combination, but the 2010 set is amazing. Likely the same effect on properly flexed skis of other brands, less the wedges. I just didn't like the new Atomic World cups, absently light and "dead" to me.

Or, half of the olympians were on Salomon! A solution for ski
interface would be good, as ski selection (plates or no) or dealing
with Salomon bolted on top of NIS (my current situation) can be
avoided.

Perhaps NIS is adopted as a standard, like VHS and open-source?


something going with a NIS plate is a success, because the Rottefella
NIS plate is kicking their butts. More than half the cross country
olympians were on NNN boots and NIS skis.

On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 04:50:30 -0700 (PDT)
Douglas wrote:

Thanks for this link on the Salomon Skate Wedge. It raises the boot
5mm at the front and 1mm at the heel increasing ankle flexion. The

I already use a 3-4mm riser (e.g., NNN plate) under the full length of
my right bindings to accommodate how decades of compensation for a bad
knee led to a lower right pelvis (1+ cm). And last March I turned down
the best fitted pair of NIS classics I'd ever been on - and deeply
soured my relations with Boulder Nordic - in good part because I didn't
want to be elevated another 3-4 mm off the ski (sort of like Aero 150
rollerskis). And now this!

theory is the ski squirts forward when skating uphill. So now let me
get this straight Madshus raises the heel of their skate boots by a
lot instead of the toe box. Their theory is the higher heel engages
the powerful thigh muscles more for skating. Got to love these
marketing guys. Thank goodness Salomon went back to the single axis
rubber flexor classic binding. Hopefully their current quest to get
something going with a NIS plate is a success, because the Rottefella
NIS plate is kicking their butts. More than half the cross country
olympians were on NNN boots and NIS skis.

Good points, Doug. At least Salomon is (hopefully) not planning
to build the wedge shape into the binding itself, so that new bindings
are needed to use it. Zach has told me for quite some time that skis
with Salomon Pilot bindings often do better when the bindings are
mounted 1cm or more behind the balance point (depends on the ski's flex
construction). Having that adjustability built into the binding is a
real advantage, as I found with the NIS pair I tested.

Gene

And I thought you live a good distance from snow and just got on it
for the first time a season or so ago.



On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:00:29 +0000
Jan Gerrit Klok wrote:


I wrote a review of the Wedges on www.xcskiforum.com , maybe even
cross-posted here.

Wedges? Night and day, yes, BUT mostly when using Pilot II boots, AND
the Salomon skis which already have a backslope relative to the snow
surface, under the binding (ski height taper).
IMO, the wedge is a patch-up for a problem you don't get with, for
instance, sister brand Atomic. I have older top end models of both,
and the difference is, well, a wedge thinkness.
I spoke a salomon racer in January, he was the first to tell me of the
wedges. He was well informed with the dragginess of Equipe 10 ski tips
that I was asking him about. The wedges he said, helped.
I got to try that in February, and indeed, it helped. But ONLY when I
was really driving the skis with authority (race style), and without
the pilot II boots, I was barely noticing the advantage. Together
though, and racing, WOW... I thought my Adidas/older Equipe10 was a
winning combination, but the 2010 set is amazing. Likely the same
effect on properly flexed skis of other brands, less the wedges. I
just didn't like the new Atomic World cups, absently light and "dead"
to me.




--
Jan Gerrit Klok

I was perplexed at the difference Pilot II made over Pilot. I could see a combination of bumper and only the second Pilot II pin. Think cycling shoe, the range of motion, power, and pressure. That's something you want to follow throw with the toes on. IMO, bindings need to recoverslower initially. See all the pro's flopping their skate skis out. Bindings compressed to the max, sling the ski back to fast. Casual skiers have skis that remain in their position, pro skis are like rock band drumsticks.
I have now found that maybe bindings for racers and regular skiers should not be the same, at least for skating. I see less of a problem classic.

You're getting old if you mistake 4 years for 1 :-)
I fail to see the relevance though.
Would you rather trust a manufacturer's story than to read a review on a new product from an actual recreational skier? I may be a novice, but ski skating is my life. When I'm on snow, I make up for the months I did not live in the snow.

Also, the new ice age we're entering misrepresented as "Global Warming" had me skiing the streets of coastal Netherlands for several days this winter. I have done more kms on snow on a single day than I've ridden on a bike in many years.

Actually, I think the Wedges raise the boot more at the heel than the front, but I could be misremembring. The whole idea of the things is to fix the "drag/hang" of the tip which many skaters experience. The higher heels effectively have the ankle lift the tips off the snow. 4mm difference under the foot is like 2cm for the ski tips.

I'll again stress, I could only tell a significant difference when I consciously followed throw, pushing off with the toes. Addressing the calf muscles normally to be left alone. I have not tried to find an explanation for this perceived or real effect.

The wedges seems to have merit, but will not be needed for all types of ski. Look at the position of your binding relative to the snow surface, how high off front and rear? My Equipe10's are the most "draggy" in that respect, compared to my other skis, looking at geometry alone. Flex and balance will likely play a role as well.

On Mar 17, 6:24*am, Jan Gerrit Klok Jan.Gerrit.Klok.
wrote:
You're getting old if you mistake 4 years for 1 :-)
I fail to see the relevance though.
Would you rather trust a manufacturer's story than to read a review on
a new product from an actual recreational skier? I may be a novice, but
ski skating is my life. When I'm on snow, I make up for the months I did
not live in the snow.

Also, the new ice age we're entering misrepresented as "Global Warming"
had me skiing the streets of coastal Netherlands for several days this
winter. I have done more kms on snow on a single day than I've ridden
on a bike in many years.

Actually, I think the Wedges raise the boot more at the heel than the
front, but I could be misremembring. The whole idea of the things is to
fix the "drag/hang" of the tip which many skaters experience. The higher
heels effectively have the ankle lift the tips off the snow. 4mm
difference under the foot is like 2cm for the ski tips.

I'll again stress, I could only tell a significant difference when I
consciously followed throw, pushing off with the toes. Addressing the
calf muscles normally to be left alone. I have not tried to find an
explanation for this perceived or real effect.

The wedges seems to have merit, but will not be needed for all types of
ski. Look at the position of your binding relative to the snow surface,
how high off front and rear? My Equipe10's are the most "draggy" in
that respect, compared to my other skis, looking at geometry alone.
Flex and balance will likely play a role as well.

--
Jan Gerrit Klok

Jan,
With much respect I'm not attempting to draw you into a verbal spat,
but perhaps you could be more clear on what you are describing here.
You're putting forth a lot of thoughts. For example "bumper and second
axis Pilot 2 pin". Also it's pretty clear the wedge raises the
forefoot of the boot more than the heel. Not the other way around. In
order to increase forward ankle flex the forefoot needs to be higher
not the opposite. Personnaly I would like to see Salomon make a skate
binding like the Rottefella. In design the simplest design usually
wins out sort of like "Hakkoms Razor". Get rid of the mechanical
springs and levers on the Pilot and use a rubber flexor at the toe and
control return flexor like the Rottefella to stabilize the tip. It
really is a minimalistic design marvel. Thanks for your thoughts and
you're skiing on the Netherlands Coast because Global Warming really
exists and is re-structuring the jet stream. Happy Trails and I'm not
trying to bait you into a flame war.

Doug, Jan was responding to my comment about his experience. Jan,
enthusiasm is great, while your lack of respect for the difference in
skill, knowledge and thus evaluative judgment between a novice skier and
a more experienced, technically proficient one does not come across
well. You don't even have the details right about the new Salomon
bindings, which tells me that you're, ah, in way over your head. To
wit:

14 Oct 2006, you wrote: "I live only 230km away from all that, while
I've never seen an XC skier in person."

19 Feb 2007, "Oh, don't forget what a blessing actual snow on the
trails is (closest 1km of skating trails is now 550km removed from me,
and likely colored brown)."

21 Mar 2007: "This is my first true snow experience. First 2 days a lot
of no-poling to get some snow feel and balance. This third days some
more serious climbing efforts. Man, it`s hard! Not fysically, just the
coordination of things. I suck. But I WILL learn this, some day..."

31 Dec 2009: "I am like a girl when it comes to ski boots. I have one
pair of casual non-sports shoes, but ski boots... Just snagged 2
deals... EUR125 RC Carbon Skates, not the very latest version. I
mis-placed the pair I had or have, and LOVE."

5 Jan 2010: "I always knew Nordic would be hard, for the geographics
(although supposed global warming has given me a week of skiing here in
coastal Netherlands recently). Other regions are into their 3rd week.
I'm clumsy in my muscle-control (really tall and lanky), that surely
doesn't help me. Also, I'm scared for downhills."

Gene


On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 08:07:31 -0700 (PDT)
Douglas wrote:

On Mar 17, 6:24*am, Jan Gerrit Klok Jan.Gerrit.Klok.
wrote:
You're getting old if you mistake 4 years for 1 :-)
I fail to see the relevance though.
Would you rather trust a manufacturer's story than to read a review
on a new product from an actual recreational skier? I may be a
novice, but ski skating is my life. When I'm on snow, I make up for
the months I did not live in the snow.

Also, the new ice age we're entering misrepresented as "Global
Warming" had me skiing the streets of coastal Netherlands for
several days this winter. I have done more kms on snow on a single
day than I've ridden on a bike in many years.

Actually, I think the Wedges raise the boot more at the heel than
the front, but I could be misremembring. The whole idea of the
things is to fix the "drag/hang" of the tip which many skaters
experience. The higher heels effectively have the ankle lift the
tips off the snow. 4mm difference under the foot is like 2cm for
the ski tips.

I'll again stress, I could only tell a significant difference when I
consciously followed throw, pushing off with the toes. Addressing
the calf muscles normally to be left alone. I have not tried to
find an explanation for this perceived or real effect.

The wedges seems to have merit, but will not be needed for all
types of ski. Look at the position of your binding relative to the
snow surface, how high off front and rear? My Equipe10's are the
most "draggy" in that respect, compared to my other skis, looking
at geometry alone. Flex and balance will likely play a role as well.

--
Jan Gerrit Klok

Jan,
With much respect I'm not attempting to draw you into a verbal spat,
but perhaps you could be more clear on what you are describing here.
You're putting forth a lot of thoughts. For example "bumper and second
axis Pilot 2 pin". Also it's pretty clear the wedge raises the
forefoot of the boot more than the heel. Not the other way around. In
order to increase forward ankle flex the forefoot needs to be higher
not the opposite. Personnaly I would like to see Salomon make a skate
binding like the Rottefella. In design the simplest design usually
wins out sort of like "Hakkoms Razor". Get rid of the mechanical
springs and levers on the Pilot and use a rubber flexor at the toe and
control return flexor like the Rottefella to stabilize the tip. It
really is a minimalistic design marvel. Thanks for your thoughts and
you're skiing on the Netherlands Coast because Global Warming really
exists and is re-structuring the jet stream. Happy Trails and I'm not
trying to bait you into a flame war.