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Salomon's New Classic Propulsion Binding and the Salomon Skate Wedge.



 
 
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  #11  
Old March 17th 10, 04:52 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Edgar[_2_]
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Default Salomon's New Classic Propulsion Binding and the Salomon SkateWedge.

On Mar 17, 8:07*am, Douglas wrote:
On Mar 17, 6:24*am, Jan Gerrit Klok Jan.Gerrit.Klok.





wrote:
You're getting old if you mistake 4 years for 1 :-)
I fail to see the relevance though.
Would you rather trust a manufacturer's story than to read a review on
a new product from an actual recreational skier? I may be a novice, but
ski skating is my life. When I'm on snow, I make up for the months I did
not live in the snow.


Also, the new ice age we're entering misrepresented as "Global Warming"
had me skiing the streets of coastal Netherlands for several days this
winter. I have done more kms on snow on a single day than I've ridden
on a bike in many years.


Actually, I think the Wedges raise the boot more at the heel than the
front, but I could be misremembring. The whole idea of the things is to
fix the "drag/hang" of the tip which many skaters experience. The higher
heels effectively have the ankle lift the tips off the snow. 4mm
difference under the foot is like 2cm for the ski tips.


I'll again stress, I could only tell a significant difference when I
consciously followed throw, pushing off with the toes. Addressing the
calf muscles normally to be left alone. I have not tried to find an
explanation for this perceived or real effect.


The wedges seems to have merit, but will not be needed for all types of
ski. Look at the position of your binding relative to the snow surface,
how high off front and rear? My Equipe10's are the most "draggy" in
that respect, compared to my other skis, looking at geometry alone.
Flex and balance will likely play a role as well.


--
Jan Gerrit Klok


Jan,
With much respect I'm not attempting to draw you into a verbal spat,
but perhaps you could be more clear on what you are describing here.
You're putting forth a lot of thoughts. For example "bumper and second
axis Pilot 2 pin". Also it's pretty clear the wedge raises the
forefoot of the boot more than the heel. Not the other way around. In
order to increase forward ankle flex the forefoot needs to be higher
not the opposite. Personnaly I would like to see Salomon make a skate
binding like the Rottefella. *In design the simplest design usually
wins out sort of like "Hakkoms Razor". Get rid of the mechanical
springs and levers on the Pilot and use a rubber flexor at the toe and
control return flexor like the Rottefella to stabilize the tip. It
really is a minimalistic design marvel. Thanks for your thoughts and
you're skiing on the Netherlands Coast because Global Warming really
exists and is re-structuring the jet stream. Happy Trails and I'm not
trying to bait you into a flame war.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


How does the wedge raising the forefoot increase the ankle flex
angle? With a wege higher at the toe than heel I would think that the
skier would have to increase ankle flex even more to get the skier's
center of gravity forward over the toe.

Edgar
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  #12  
Old March 17th 10, 10:52 PM
Jan Gerrit Klok Jan Gerrit Klok is offline
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Interesting how things need to be made personal, "patience young grasshopper, so much to learn". Never had that in the bike scene, and never treated anyone that way myself. If someone had an experience with a product, even testing it shortly, or as a first-ever 2-wheel experience, I would take note, and store it for when I'd need it. Experiences albeit personal, are usally very telling, of something real going on. It just may be something different or more complex than the person sharing it.

Anyway, I'll be quite stupid if I managed to get this wrong, and having missed it with the thing sin my hands and under my feet. I was told the wedge is to lift the tips off the snow primarily, and that it helps with the toe push-off that is normally taboo. I never figured anything else but the heels being raised more, that's what makes sense to me.
For range of motion from the ankle, a lower heel would be beneficial. But would that be BETTER? Then I would hope the (inline)skating sports would have jumped on that decades earlier. Wedges to me? Fix for a design flaw in the Equipe 10 ski height variance under the binding which the competition didn't put in there, saving the wedges in dead weight and unwanted complexity.

I am a bit of an inventor, but don't always have a CAD drawing ready when an idea surfaces. I have a hunch, now supported by the Pilot II experience, that for racers, there is something to be had from a real clap skate style binding, that allows positive toe extension. Yes, boots will be higher off the skis make room under the toes.
If people are really interested, I might try sketching some up, but reality dictates it will never happen evne if the idea would be sound. Salomon won't like it, and skiers won't like it (another useless standard).
We could get more out of pilot boots though, the 2 fix-spaced pins are mighty versatile for connecting to something.

Now, go ski those wedges for yourself, and check which side goes up. I've been wrong before, and not afraid to admit fault here.
  #13  
Old March 18th 10, 12:07 AM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Bob
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Posts: 73
Default Salomon's New Classic Propulsion Binding and the Salomon SkateWedge.

Jan Gerrit Klok wrote:
snip

Anyway, I'll be quite stupid if I managed to get this wrong, and having
missed it with the thing sin my hands and under my feet. I was told the
wedge is to lift the tips off the snow primarily, and that it helps
with the toe push-off that is normally taboo. I never figured anything
else but the heels being raised more, that's what makes sense to me.
For range of motion from the ankle, a lower heel would be beneficial.
But would that be BETTER? Then I would hope the (inline)skating sports

snip

is this what you're talking about?
http://www.skiroll.it/shop/en/produc...-SNS-WEDGE.asp
The high end of the wedge is clearly under the toe of the binding.

Bob
  #15  
Old March 18th 10, 06:59 AM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Andrew Lee[_2_]
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Default Salomon's New Classic Propulsion Binding and the Salomon SkateWedge.

Douglas wrote:
I saw some pics of the new Salomon Classic Propulsion binding on
Fasterskier. They're going back to one axis and a rubber flexor. A
good idea. I'll use my Pilot Classic for roller skiing. No chance to
malfunction without snow getting into the kevlar strap mechanism.
Oddly the pic of the new binding shows the tail piece of the binding
being really narrow. I'm not sure but it looks like the boot sole
rests on the ski itself. The ridge in the binding still fits into the
slot on the boot.There is also some writing saying ultra low binding.
Perhaps they acheive this with the boot sole contacting the ski and
not the plastic tail piece.


Yes, the boot sole contacts the skis.

Secondly there was a video of the new Salomon Skating wedge on
Salomon's Nordic Facebook account. A Italian tech says they installed
the Salomon Wedge on all the skate skis and it was like night and day.
Does anyone have a clue what this wedge is. Hopefully it's not a
disaster like the Pilot Classic Binding.


This wedge fixes what has been bothering me about my ski boots -
namely the high heels. It would be entirely unnecessary if they
didn't elevate the heels in the boots so much in the first place. The
wedge reduces the forefoot/heel height differential by only 4 mm,
which judging by the looks of most my ski boots, still leaves the heel
elevated quite a bit. My old Centrix boots are particularly high and
it definitely affects how I push (more awkward) compared to the lower
heeled, but still elevated Salomons. I'm tempted to put this on all
my skis, and maybe see if stacking two of the would be too much. I
might also try cutting down the heels in the old Centrix boots.

I've been using no-heeled shoes for running (Feelmax brand) for only
the past half week, but they are a revelation for me in how good my
running form feels without elevated heels. I know skiing is a
different activitiy entirely, but I've had the sense that the heels in
my ski boots are too high for a few years now, so it's good to see
that top racers have noticed this too.



  #16  
Old March 18th 10, 05:04 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
[email protected]
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Default Salomon's New Classic Propulsion Binding and the Salomon SkateWedge.

Andrew (and anyone else), before starting or getting far with a
switch to barefeet or thin-soled running shoes, I'd suggest a look at
the series (and especially the cautions) at
http://www.sportsscientists.com/. A good blog for other subjects too
(and their book, The Runner's Body, is also quite good).

Gene


On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 23:59:14 -0700 (PDT)
Andrew Lee wrote:

I've been using no-heeled shoes for running (Feelmax brand) for only
the past half week, but they are a revelation for me in how good my
running form feels without elevated heels. I know skiing is a
different activitiy entirely, but I've had the sense that the heels in
my ski boots are too high for a few years now, so it's good to see
that top racers have noticed this too.



  #17  
Old March 19th 10, 12:02 AM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Andrew Lee[_2_]
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Default Salomon's New Classic Propulsion Binding and the Salomon SkateWedge.

On Mar 18, 9:04*am, wrote:
Andrew Lee wrote:
I've been using no-heeled shoes for running (Feelmax brand) for only
the past half week, but they are a revelation for me in how good my
running form feels without elevated heels. I know skiing is a
different activitiy entirely, but I've had the sense that the heels in
my ski boots are too high for a few years now, so it's good to see
that top racers have noticed this too.


Andrew (and anyone else), before starting or getting far with a
switch to barefeet or thin-soled running shoes, I'd suggest a look at
the series (and especially the cautions) athttp://www.sportsscientists.com/. *A good blog for other subjects too
(and their book, The Runner's Body, is also quite good).


This is really off topic, but I'm fine. I've been running following
the minimalist line of thought more or less at times since I started
running (in 1985) and long before the recent upsurge in barefoot
running talk. These are just the first shoes that I've had that are
truly flat. My legs are pretty durable. When I started running, I
ran 8 miles my first day out at the beginning of summer, and then 9
miles each day for the rest of the summer (shows quick adaptability).
I've put 4,300 miles into a single pair of cheap shoes in college (I
ran 5,000 miles that year), so it's not like I need the cushioning -
the EVA in the forefoot of those shoes were squished flat in the first
week I seem to recall. I was injury free, except for a sprained
ankle, until a couple of years ago when I started having achilles
issues. That's partly what's motivating me to go a bit further
towards barefoot style.

Thanks for the link. Just doing a quick scan for now, I think I'm
familiar with most of the material and I have read some of the studies
they reference. One thing that caught my eye was the discussion of
whether or not there is still a sensory "barrier" in minimalistic
shoes. I'd say it depends. In my thinner Feelmaxes (Niesa with 1.3
mm outsole plus insole totals about 3.5 mm foot to ground), I land
noticeably softer because of better ground feel (they feel like
wearing sock only) than in the thicker pair (Osma - 2.1 mm outsole
plus backing and insole totalling about 6mm foot to ground). Like I
said before, especially for the thinner pair, it's a revelation that I
don't feel harshness at footstrike, and having no heel rise really
frees up my stride.
  #18  
Old March 23rd 10, 10:33 AM
Jan Gerrit Klok Jan Gerrit Klok is offline
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So superficial. If more are like you and Gene, no wonder it's had to get any decent online info on skiing. Learn some from cycling. I hope your mothers are proud.
There is always one less and one more experienced than you. And you can't measure a heart by age.
 




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