Nordic Skiing Automobile

quote who= Gary Jacobson /:

I hope this doesn't get into SUV bashing as some friends have them. Well
that is if the Honda Element is a SUV. I don't understand those SUVs.

I owned a Toyota 4Runner for 4 years. It has Nokian snow tires (which
BTW I highly recommend, they grip like nuts and last forever, worth
every penny).

It never once got stuck, drove me through everything and never had a
single problem. I could show up to ski in jeans, change in the back very
comforatably and back again after skiing.

That was the good. The bad is its very expensive not just in its
sticker price but in the cost of gas (insane), insurance and the cost if
something does go wrong is substantial.

But the real reason I purchased a Subaru and sent back my 4Runner was
the environmental issues. I ski maybe 20 times a year and I need my car
for bike racing maybe 15 times a year. That's 35 times a year. The other
330 days of the year I use it like every other mortal. I simply had a
hard time justifying such an expense to my pocket book and the
environment for that slight convenience of 30 times a year.

I just got the Subie so I don't know first hand how it will behave
this winter but I am going to put Nokians on her. All the AWD or 4WD in
the world isn't going to help you stop. IMHO if you plan on driving
regularly in snow, get real winter tires.

J.

--
Justin F. Knotzke

http://www.shampoo.ca

"Justin F. Knotzke" wrote in message
...

I just got the Subie so I don't know first hand how it will behave
this winter but I am going to put Nokians on her. All the AWD or 4WD in
the world isn't going to help you stop. IMHO if you plan on driving
regularly in snow, get real winter tires.

Hi Justin,
Most people here are saying I should put snow tires on my Outback, but... I
live at sea level and drive 4 hours to get to snow. Should *I* have snow
tires on this beast for the 5 months that I drive up regularly? I've never
had a problem but I also leave about twice the stopping distance for myself
that everyone else in California does. If I do put snow tires on a set of
steel rims (oooh, wouldn't that be a fashion statement?) will the 3 1/2
hours each way on dry freeway wear those snow tires out prematurely?

Bob

Bob,

I would keep the "all-seasons" on for your situation. The Subie will
definitely get you through everything with decent all-seasons, you will just
have to drive a little more cautiously in snow. They make snow tires that
are a little harder and less aggressive for the mix of driving that you are
doing so if you decide to go with the extra set of wheels and tires, you
could get some of those. If you go for the "pure" snow tires, you will
probably be disappointed because they will perform pretty badly (relatively)
on dry roads and they will be destroyed in a season or two.

We drove our two team Outbacks across the country (Maine to California
and everywhere in between) several times this last season (November-March),
and by the time April rolled around, one of them had 18,000 miles. A lot of
this was on dry pavement, and all of it on Bridgestone Blizzaks. They were
still in surprisingly good shape, but probably would only last one more year
with all of the idiotic driving we do (dry roads, high speeds, cornering,
mountains, donuts in parking lots, etc).

I've spent a lot of time going up Donner Pass in nasty snowstorms, and
whenever they are stopping people to make them put on chains, we always get
waved through in Subarus... Since that area can get pretty nasty and icy,
you might want to invest in a set of chains to assure you that you can go
anywhere, but you probably would never use them.

If you keep safe stopping distances and keep the speed down when in
snow, you will do fine with all-seasons. And since snow tires suck on dry
pavement and that is where you will be 90%+ of the time, all-seasons are the
way to go.

-Nathan
http://nsavage.com


"Bob" wrote in message
...

"Justin F. Knotzke" wrote in message
...

I just got the Subie so I don't know first hand how it will behave
this winter but I am going to put Nokians on her. All the AWD or 4WD in
the world isn't going to help you stop. IMHO if you plan on driving
regularly in snow, get real winter tires.

Hi Justin,
Most people here are saying I should put snow tires on my Outback, but...
I
live at sea level and drive 4 hours to get to snow. Should *I* have snow
tires on this beast for the 5 months that I drive up regularly? I've never
had a problem but I also leave about twice the stopping distance for
myself
that everyone else in California does. If I do put snow tires on a set of
steel rims (oooh, wouldn't that be a fashion statement?) will the 3 1/2
hours each way on dry freeway wear those snow tires out prematurely?

Bob

Thanks Nathan,
I put some Dunlop Sport A2s on last year and I like them wet, dry, and snow
just as well (if not better) than the OEM tires.

On the subject of chains: the Outback owner's manual says don't use 'em: the
fender clearence isn't large enough. Any suggestions? I figure that if it's
so bad that I need chains on the Subaru, then maybe I should just wait it
out. Of course, that's never happened, yet :-)

Bob
PS does Fuji Heavy Industries know you do donuts in their car?

"Nathan Schultz" wrote in message
news:32VVa.21199$o%2.11505@sccrnsc02...
Bob,

I would keep the "all-seasons" on for your situation. The Subie will
definitely get you through everything with decent all-seasons, you will
just
have to drive a little more cautiously in snow. They make snow tires that
are a little harder and less aggressive for the mix of driving that you
are
doing so if you decide to go with the extra set of wheels and tires, you
could get some of those. If you go for the "pure" snow tires, you will
probably be disappointed because they will perform pretty badly
(relatively)
on dry roads and they will be destroyed in a season or two.

We drove our two team Outbacks across the country (Maine to California
and everywhere in between) several times this last season
(November-March),
and by the time April rolled around, one of them had 18,000 miles. A lot
of
this was on dry pavement, and all of it on Bridgestone Blizzaks. They
were
still in surprisingly good shape, but probably would only last one more
year
with all of the idiotic driving we do (dry roads, high speeds, cornering,
mountains, donuts in parking lots, etc).

I've spent a lot of time going up Donner Pass in nasty snowstorms, and
whenever they are stopping people to make them put on chains, we always
get
waved through in Subarus... Since that area can get pretty nasty and icy,
you might want to invest in a set of chains to assure you that you can go
anywhere, but you probably would never use them.

If you keep safe stopping distances and keep the speed down when in
snow, you will do fine with all-seasons. And since snow tires suck on dry
pavement and that is where you will be 90%+ of the time, all-seasons are
the
way to go.

-Nathan
http://nsavage.com


"Bob" wrote in message
...

"Justin F. Knotzke" wrote in message
...

I just got the Subie so I don't know first hand how it will behave
this winter but I am going to put Nokians on her. All the AWD or 4WD
in
the world isn't going to help you stop. IMHO if you plan on driving
regularly in snow, get real winter tires.

Hi Justin,
Most people here are saying I should put snow tires on my Outback,
but...
I
live at sea level and drive 4 hours to get to snow. Should *I* have snow
tires on this beast for the 5 months that I drive up regularly? I've
never
had a problem but I also leave about twice the stopping distance for
myself
that everyone else in California does. If I do put snow tires on a set
of
steel rims (oooh, wouldn't that be a fashion statement?) will the 3 1/2
hours each way on dry freeway wear those snow tires out prematurely?

Bob

In all this discussion, I've been wondering how much snow tires are really
needed in a place like the Twin Cities where it doesn't snow that much and
the roads are clear the vast majority of the time. They will help on some
trips up north or into Wisconsin or Michigan, but even that depends on the
roads traveled.

An alternative for the Subaru is the ContiExtreme Contact tires available
from the Tirerack. These are inexpensive all-seasons with a very high
customer rating for snow, as well as everything else, and 80k treadlife.
The only downside for pre-21st century Subies, is that they require at
least 16 inch wheels, which are at least $100 each.

Gene

"Justin F. Knotzke" wrote:

But the real reason I purchased a Subaru and sent back my 4Runner was
the environmental issues. I ski maybe 20 times a year and I need my car
for bike racing maybe 15 times a year. That's 35 times a year. The other
330 days of the year I use it like every other mortal. I simply had a
hard time justifying such an expense to my pocket book and the
environment for that slight convenience of 30 times a year.

I just got the Subie so I don't know first hand how it will behave
this winter but I am going to put Nokians on her. All the AWD or 4WD in
the world isn't going to help you stop. IMHO if you plan on driving
regularly in snow, get real winter tires.

Hi Justin-

I hear you on the fuel economy and enviornmental issues- thats why I
have a Toyota RAV4. The Honda CRV is another good option in that
class. When you look at purchase price and repair expense over a long
time span- I think the initial
purchase expense is less important. I plan to have my Rav4 for 10
years- the initial price was 2,000 more than the Subaru- $200 per
year. For the comfort and lack of time spent fixing my Toyota, I'll
spend $500 a year more. I also don't consider Subarus,CRVs and RAV4s
as SUVs- they are small station wagons.
Just my thoughts-

Joe Ricci

"Justin F. Knotzke" wrote in message ...
quote who= Gary Jacobson /:

I hope this doesn't get into SUV bashing as some friends have them. Well
that is if the Honda Element is a SUV. I don't understand those SUVs.

I owned a Toyota 4Runner for 4 years. It has Nokian snow tires (which
BTW I highly recommend, they grip like nuts and last forever, worth
every penny).

It never once got stuck, drove me through everything and never had a
single problem. I could show up to ski in jeans, change in the back very
comforatably and back again after skiing.

That was the good. The bad is its very expensive not just in its
sticker price but in the cost of gas (insane), insurance and the cost if
something does go wrong is substantial.

But the real reason I purchased a Subaru and sent back my 4Runner was
the environmental issues. I ski maybe 20 times a year and I need my car
for bike racing maybe 15 times a year. That's 35 times a year. The other
330 days of the year I use it like every other mortal. I simply had a
hard time justifying such an expense to my pocket book and the
environment for that slight convenience of 30 times a year.

I just got the Subie so I don't know first hand how it will behave
this winter but I am going to put Nokians on her. All the AWD or 4WD in
the world isn't going to help you stop. IMHO if you plan on driving
regularly in snow, get real winter tires.

J.

Wow...a snow tire discussion on a ski list....for a minute there this
was looking a lot like another mailing list I lurk on. ANYHOW

In all this discussion, I've been wondering how much snow tires are
really needed in a place like the Twin Cities where it doesn't snow
that much and the roads are clear the vast majority of the time.

It really depends on where you live and when you drive. I'm out and on
the road before 5:30 most days. While the Interstates are usually
pretty good, side streets can be icy and dicey for quite a while
afterwards. In some areas of St. Paul/Mpls even after snow emergency
plowing, side streets can be a challenge. There have been many times
I've been glad I've had the snow tires.

The last few winters have been fairly mild so it hasn't been as big an
issue, but the fact remains that I'd rather have them and not need them
than be stuck in the other situation....and I have needed them even with
the mild winters.

For the record:

Subaru Legacy Wagon AWD- Hakka NRW (Hakka 10 carcass w. an all season
tread w/o studs)
Volvo 240- Hakka Q (Seasonal snow tires)

quote who= Joe Ricci /:
Hi Justin-

I hear you on the fuel economy and enviornmental issues- thats why I
have a Toyota RAV4. The Honda CRV is another good option in that
class. When you look at purchase price and repair expense over a long
time span- I think the initial
purchase expense is less important. I plan to have my Rav4 for 10
years- the initial price was 2,000 more than the Subaru- $200 per
year. For the comfort and lack of time spent fixing my Toyota, I'll
spend $500 a year more. I also don't consider Subarus,CRVs and RAV4s
as SUVs- they are small station wagons.
Just my thoughts-

I did a little bit of digging on Fuel economy and:

Rav 4 10.7/8.1
4Runner 13.7/10.7
Subaru Impreza TS 2.5L 11.2/7.7

The Subie is manual..

The 4Runner is quite the pig, no surprise. The Rav 4 and Subie are
quite close. In terms of fuel efficiency, none of the 3 are stellar but
given that we as Nordic skiers are concerned with handling in snow, I
think we have to give up on the fuel efficiency a little in order to get
better traction.

J


--
Justin F. Knotzke

http://www.shampoo.ca

I think these numbers are in liters per 100kms...highway vs city? How does
that translate to mpg? (too lazy to do it myself...)


From: "Justin F. Knotzke"
Organization: Bell Sympatico
Newsgroups: rec.skiing.nordic
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 14:45:15 GMT
Subject: Nordic Skiing Automobile

snip.......

I did a little bit of digging on Fuel economy and:

Rav 4 10.7/8.1
4Runner 13.7/10.7
Subaru Impreza TS 2.5L 11.2/7.7

The Subie is manual..

Hi Justin-

I didn't quite understand your fuel economy numbers- all I know is I
get about 24 mpg on trips in my RAV4 with a thule ski box on top- good
enough for me-

Joe

"Justin F. Knotzke" wrote in message ...
quote who= Joe Ricci /:
Hi Justin-

I hear you on the fuel economy and enviornmental issues- thats why I
have a Toyota RAV4. The Honda CRV is another good option in that
class. When you look at purchase price and repair expense over a long
time span- I think the initial
purchase expense is less important. I plan to have my Rav4 for 10
years- the initial price was 2,000 more than the Subaru- $200 per
year. For the comfort and lack of time spent fixing my Toyota, I'll
spend $500 a year more. I also don't consider Subarus,CRVs and RAV4s
as SUVs- they are small station wagons.
Just my thoughts-

I did a little bit of digging on Fuel economy and:

Rav 4 10.7/8.1
4Runner 13.7/10.7
Subaru Impreza TS 2.5L 11.2/7.7

The Subie is manual..

The 4Runner is quite the pig, no surprise. The Rav 4 and Subie are
quite close. In terms of fuel efficiency, none of the 3 are stellar but
given that we as Nordic skiers are concerned with handling in snow, I
think we have to give up on the fuel efficiency a little in order to get
better traction.

J