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#11
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Highcountry Skating (was: For inspiration: a true viking breaks a record)
Ken,
Fischer stopped making the Revolutions many years ago. The original model came only in one size (147 cm.), and was either waxable or waxless. Nobody bought either, really. They didn't really work well for the targeted consumer. HOWEVER, I personally don't think that there is a better ski out there for the purpose of backcountry skating than the WAXABLE REVOLUTION. I've tried similar Rossi models, newer Fischers, Madshus, but nothing compares to the Revo's for me. But they're not for everybody, and I realize that. A lot of people believe they're too short, and to be honest, they take a few hours of getting used to before you can handle the length properly. If you're interested in getting some, check old rental sales or garage sales, because there were quite a few out there for a while, and I'm sure they're collecting dust in many garages. Fischer also made another Revolution ski called the Adventure Revolution, which I think you would probably like the best for your type of touring. It was a little longer than the original Revolution, at 157 cm., wider, and heavier. It also has full metal edges. It also came in waxable or waxless. The waxless ski was basically worthless, but for high mountain skate cruising, the metal edges, extra width and bulk of the Adventure has its place. We use the original Revo for cruising around Tahoe and Yosemite, where the terrain is a little less steep. When we go a little farther south, such as out of Bishop or Big Pine, I find that the better turnability and metal edges of the Adventures make up for the fact that it's heavier and slower. As Nathan mentioned, the new PACER SKATE might make for a good alternative, but I haven't had a chance to really try them much. There's also the new POWERLIGHT waxable, which has metal edges, which might also work, but again, I haven't had a chance to work with them. Your Pellestova's are definitely worth a try, but my opinion is that they're a little too heavy and slow for real enjoyable skating unless you're in some very steep terrain, which, imho, isn't that suitable for skating anyway. I agree that Rock Creek to Mammoth is probably better South to North because of the terrain, but in general I like to stick to skiing down the softer side, and booting up the steep slopes (often with the crutch of an ice tool - it's amazing how well Salomon skate boots front point!). And yes, those bullet-proof days are great when you're trying to cover as many miles as possible, but sometimes you end up hitting one of those icy slopes you THINK is going to soften up, and then the sphincter gets REALLY tight, and, well, you know... happy skiing, Mark "Ken Roberts" wrote in message ... Thanks for all the ideas, Mark. now using only Revolutions (or sometimes Fischer Adventures for the really steep and icy tours). I can't find the Revolutions on the Fischer website any more. I never owned a pair, and it seems that Fischer also used the "Revolution" label for some of its alpine skis. So let me make sure I understand what you're using: -- short ski -- metal edge (?) -- waxable base for skating (?) (even though it also came in no-wax versions) I wonder if my Madshus Pellestova skis are close enough to the Revolutions, of if I should consider getting something more specific for Sierra high tours. The Pellestovas are 178 cm, pair-weight around 2 kg, full metal edge, waxable base, enough sidecut for better downhill turning than I would have guessed -- and I use them with my Salomon Combi Race boots. Yes, carrying a heavy pack has taken me to some great places, but "fun" doesn't usually come to mind until I take it off. And "going for it" on a point-to-point backcountry traverse in a single day adds a dimension of seriousness and commitment that I don't find in racing. Much of my race training looks beyond to April and May, preparing to be fast enough when the "right" day comes there on the Sierra Eastside. (But I do try to bring enough clothing with me so I feel like I'd have a good chance of surviving if I were still out after the sun goes down.) Now I'm learning to apply that to some of my planning. But when I did Rock Creek to Mammoth in two days, I came away convinced that South-to-North was clearly the way to go for that one section of the Sierra Crest. Because most of the steep slopes are on the south side. So I found I could just take my skis off and boot up those, then get a long cruise down the less-steep slopes on the other side. And something Marty Hornick told me made me think pretty definitely that he did his under-8-hour achievement in the South-to-North direction, and was happy with that plan. = My experience skating across Humpheys Basin in April a couple of years ago was completely different. It had been hot and mushy the day _before_, while I was preparing. Then it froze real hard, and like crossing Desolation Lake -- never mind skating, even with metal edges -- I could barely get my pole tips to dig in. |
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#12
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Highcountry Skating (was: For inspiration: a true viking breaks a record)
Nathan -
The Fischer-ski.com website is not clear on this either -- if the Pacer Skate model in their Nordic Cruise line has metal edges or not. Judging by how heavy they are, I do _hope_ they have metal edges. If so, then it looks like Fischer's Pacer Skate in the short 151 cm size would be the closest thing to the old Revolution. But the only model in the Nordic Cruiser line that Fischer-ski.com actually _says_ has metal edges is the "Explorer". The shortest Explorers are 164 cm, which at 1.790 kg per meter comes to an estimated total weight of 2.9 kg -- which is heavier than I weighed my current pair of Madshus Pellestovas. Ken |
#13
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Highcountry Skating (was: For inspiration: a true viking breaks a record)
Mark -
Sounds like if I really want to find an improvement on my current light-backcountry setup, I better look for an old pair of Revolutions, like you suggest. the new PACER SKATE Near as I can tell, the Pacer Skates are only 15% lighter than my Madshus Pellestovas -- and that's only because the 151 cm length is 15% _shorter_ than my Pellestovas. I wonder if it has very much sidecut for turning -- since the Fischer-ski.com website as I viewed it today does not give any width numbers, just says "SkateCut". And it does not mention any metal edges. There's also the new POWERLIGHT waxable Using the numbers I found today on the Fischer-ski.com website, the shortest PowerLights are 161 cm, and at 1.390 kg per meter, that comes to a total weight of 2.24 kg -- just about the same as my current Pellestovas. I bought my Madshus Pellestovas a few years ago because I thought they were the lightest full-metal-edge skis I could find back then. And they had been warmly recommended by Steve Barnett, a high-country nordic skier. I've measured them as 178 cm long, pair-weight about 2.2 kg, width and sidecut 62 / 52 / 57 mm. Seems to me they would deliver more surface area per kg -- for surviving those slushy afternoons you've been warning about. The only problem with the Pellestovas is that the camber might be a bit _soft_ for optimal skating -- because they're designed for downhill turning and classic wax -- a problem which might also hold for the Fischer Powerlight and Explorer models. Which brings me back to the old Revolution: If the ski is short enough, softness and sidecut are less important for downhill turning performance. Also edge-grip could be better, since the edging-force per length ratio is higher. it's amazing how well Salomon skate boots front point I've noticed that you more experienced mountain travelers are much more comfortable than I am wandering around without crampons in springtime in the Sierras. I still wish somebody would make a "toe-bar protector" for SNS boots, for climbing over steep passes. The idea of field-repairing a broken toe-bar 13 miles out in the backcountry is daunting. Ken |
#14
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Highcountry Skating (was: For inspiration: a true viking breaks a record)
Ken,
A couple of comments, and then I'll let this thing go... From what I've seen, the Pacer Skate doesn't seem anything like the old Revolutions, so I doubt that it will ski similarly. It doesn't have a metal edge, but to me that's an advantage, since I use the Revolution without metal edges about 20 to 1 over the Adventures. The fact that the Revo's don't have much sidecut isn't much of a consideration, since, when the conditions are right, they turn beautifully. But note the caveat in the previous sentence: when the conditions aren't optimal, they're "survival" skis. The Adventures are a little better in less-than-optimal conditions because of their extra length and width. But it's a true double-edge sword -- Adventures don't skate nearly as well as the Revo's. The Powerlight sounds too heavy for my tastes - you might as well be touring out there, not skating quick and fast. We don't "wander" in the Sierra in the springtime. The trips are pretty well calculated for timing and conditions. If the conditions don't warrant it, we don't go, or abort pretty quickly. For instance, this spring we had a lot of late spring snows, so we had to wait until the conditions "set-up." On Sunday, the lows got into the teens, and we did a local Tahoe skate that was incredible. By Thursday, when we attempted a new route near Tioga Pass, the nighttime temps didn't get below 32 degrees - even at 10,000 feet! I ended up falling into a tarn in Dana Meadows at 5:00 in the morning. We tried to keep going at least to call it a "tour," but ended up turning around and were back to the car by 6:30 am. So you have to be VERY flexible with your timing on those routes, and be willing to bail. And YES, the thought of repairing a broken toe bar 12 miles into the backcountry does scare the heck out of us. We have often carried a spare ski (which, of course, made that we had a spare binding), and usually carry a spare pole. But nobody has carried a spare boot, which could be the weak link. And, like I said, when it gets REALLY steep, I carry a self-arrest tool, which ends up quite often being much more an emotional crutch than a physical one. Mark "Ken Roberts" wrote in message ... Sounds like if I really want to find an improvement on my current light-backcountry setup, I better look for an old pair of Revolutions, like you suggest. Near as I can tell, the Pacer Skates are only 15% lighter than my Madshus Pellestovas -- and that's only because the 151 cm length is 15% _shorter_ than my Pellestovas. I wonder if it has very much sidecut for turning -- since the Fischer-ski.com website as I viewed it today does not give any width numbers, just says "SkateCut". And it does not mention any metal edges. Using the numbers I found today on the Fischer-ski.com website, the shortest PowerLights are 161 cm, and at 1.390 kg per meter, that comes to a total weight of 2.24 kg -- just about the same as my current Pellestovas. I bought my Madshus Pellestovas a few years ago because I thought they were the lightest full-metal-edge skis I could find back then. And they had been warmly recommended by Steve Barnett, a high-country nordic skier. I've measured them as 178 cm long, pair-weight about 2.2 kg, width and sidecut 62 / 52 / 57 mm. Seems to me they would deliver more surface area per kg -- for surviving those slushy afternoons you've been warning about. The only problem with the Pellestovas is that the camber might be a bit _soft_ for optimal skating -- because they're designed for downhill turning and classic wax -- a problem which might also hold for the Fischer Powerlight and Explorer models. Which brings me back to the old Revolution: If the ski is short enough, softness and sidecut are less important for downhill turning performance. Also edge-grip could be better, since the edging-force per length ratio is higher. I've noticed that you more experienced mountain travelers are much more comfortable than I am wandering around without crampons in springtime in the Sierras. I still wish somebody would make a "toe-bar protector" for SNS boots, for climbing over steep passes. The idea of field-repairing a broken toe-bar 13 miles out in the backcountry is daunting. Ken |
#15
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Highcountry Skating (was: For inspiration: a true viking breaks a record)
Thanks a lot Mark -- I think this set of posts sharing your experiences and
advice is the best lesson on high-country skating we're going to see in a long time. Ken |
#16
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Highcountry Skating (was: For inspiration: a true viking breaks a record)
Yes, I've found that heavier gear can still be fun skating -- even in
surface layer of mush, if it's on a gentle downhill. Another technique I've enjoyed on slightly steeper mushy-surface snow is _skate-assisted_ linked downhill _turns_ (a technique also used by downhill racers). Booker Bense wrote: I suspect most people will find my setup incredibly heavy and I didn't really get it for skating, but when the snow's hard it skates surprisingly well . . . it's actually fun to turn with. That's right, there are other fun things to do on skis. That's one thing that keeps me from more skating in the Sierra backcountry: There's so many other wonderful things to do there. Like I _could_ access East Fork sno-park at Rock Creek lots of days during the early spring and skate the Little Lakes valley. But once I'm in there, I would want heavy gear to enjoy skiing the many great peaks and steep slopes. I'm starting to meet more backcountry skiers around the world (France, Germany/Austria, Tahoe, Methow) who are starting to skate on groomed tracks. They still prefer steep downhills on heavy gear in the backcountry. But they also like the motion and speed of skating on tracks, with the quicker reward of a little downhill after a little uphill. It gives us something fun to do when avalanche or weather conditions keep them out of the backcountry. I find that the muscles are different enough that I often can do groomed skating on alternate days between steep backcountry tours. Another problem in the Sierras with focusing a whole day's backcountry tour on skating is lack of altitude acclimatization. Unless I've already been there sleeping at like 2000m altitude for a few nights, it's easier to go _slow_ enough to stay within my current acclimatization-capability if I have gear to help me walk the uphills. Ken |
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