Sudtirol vs Ramsau or Obertilliach: where to ski

I did some driving around the European Alps and I found some rather pretty
places with fun skiing in the Sudtirol region in Italy. I'd favor it for a
cross-country-skiing focused holiday, over Ramsau or Obertilliach in
Austria. (but not over France)

Sudtirol is the German-speaking region in northeast Italy. I stayed in
Toblach ("Dobbiaco" in Italian), and I liked the architecture and character
of the town better than Ramsau. The cliffs and mountains are more jagged and
vertical than either Ramsau or Obertilliach. The prettiest skiing trails in
the Hochpustertal area around there can be reached by the skier shuttle bus,
though I had a rental car. I remember I was driving south on the road to
Cortina, and I saw some people skiing, and I had to stop my car right there
and get out my skis, it was so pretty by the Durrensee ("Lago di Landro") --
first time that's ever happened to me for XC skiing. Then it was so much
fun skating there along the Toblach - Cortina trail (gentler and prettier
than similar trails elsewhere) that I skied lots more distance than I
expected.

Another very pretty and fun XC ski place I found was the Fischleintal ("Val
Fiscalina") near Moos. Other people have mentioned Val di Fiemme, but I
didn't get there this time, even though it's in that Sudtirol region.

Snow assurance? A number of the trails in Sudtirol are as high or higher
than Obertilliach, and seemed better laid out for fun skiing (because in
wider gentler areas). Except for doing lap after lap on a little loop up
there somewhere on the glacier, the main trails of Ramsau are less high than
lots of trails at Sudtirol (and less high than Bessans in France).

Obertilliach:
Actually this is a short drive from Toblach, has a remote feel, pretty
village. For me that's too small to spend like a three-day holiday there,
but it would work for me as one component of longer vacation in Sudtirol.
Indeed they now sell a Dolomites-region nordic skipass that includes
Obertilliach together with Toblach and Hochpustertal (even though
Obertilliach is in Osttirol, whose mountains looked less spectacular than
Sudtirol). The trail layout was mostly up-or-down-a-single-valley, like lots
of places in the European Alps -- but I prefer a trail system wider and more
two-dimensional. Seemed like the main village is up on a substantial hill --
good if you're name is like Bjorndalen and you want a convenient location
for your Lactate Threshold repeats.

Ramsau am Dachstein:
I had a fun day skating there in the sunshine, but the trail layout is
skewed to favor Classic skiers. Indeed on a Wednesday afternoon in early
March, looked like 95% were skiing classic. Funny thing was that 90% of
those were "shufflers", just like at any American XC ski center. It was
surprising for me to be the fastest skier out there in Ramsau -- guess all
the racers were somewhre else that day.

The trail layout is broader and more "loop" options than Obertilliach. I did
the 30km skating loop, and most of another skating loop which overlapped it.
Most of these had a similar layout: straights and broad curves, well-graded
climbs including long ones (paired with long descents with broad curves). I
encountered lots of places on the main skating loop where I had to take my
skis off to cross a road, and places where I could see the trail looped back
onto itself. (Truly first-class trail designers are careful to hide that, so
it feels like the trail is taking me to a new place, e.g. the layout at
Mohonk or Mt Van Ho). What I missed most was that I didn't find much of the
tight curves with fun dips and humps which I find really fun at places like
La Feclaz in France or the rollercoaster hills at Mt Van Hoevenberg (NY).

But I wasn't there long, so perhaps somebody on this newsgroup can tell us
which are some of the more interesting loops (and if they allow skating on
them). As a skater, I didn't get real excited about Ramsau (give me La
Feclaz or Les Saisies or Mohonk or Mt Van Ho or Royal Gorge) -- but it
seemed like lots of experienced classic shufflers have been coming back ther
e, so if you like Classic striding, maybe you'll love Ramsau too.

Ken

Good post Ken,
In January I posted some stuff and asked for good XC areas in
Switzerland or Austria.

In Switz I found Engadin and Goms to be the big XC areas. After doing
Engadin marathon I can't say I'm impressed by XC conditions in
Engadin. They were good and race was perfect but I'm not sure I'll be
doing a 7day XC trip to Engadin.

In Austria(and Tirol) I found the big XC areas to be: Seefeld,
Lienz(osttirol), St.Johann/Kaiserwinkl. I choose Seefeld and I don't
regret it. Seefeld was a heaven for XC skiing! Perfect tracs, wide,
well groomed, many, skating and classic, easy and challenging tracks.
Definetely worth many days.

How good Osttirol with it's Lienz+Obertilliach is I havn't seen but it
sound very good too. Worldloppet race "Dolomittenlauf" has start in
Lienz. Maybe do it next year. And drive down to Val de Fiemme.

Passo de Lavaze is also a very good XC area. Many tracks and good
grooming. Val de Fiemme on the other hand only has the Marcialonga
tracks and some loops around WM stadion. Not a place for long XC
vacation.

In Germany I have found that most big places from Oberamergau to
Mittenwalt has good XC areas. But my favourite is so far Seefeld. Best
XC area.


Any more inputs on good XC areas in Swiss, Austria, Italia, Germany?


"Ken Roberts" wrote in message ...
I did some driving around the European Alps and I found some rather pretty
places with fun skiing in the Sudtirol region in Italy. I'd favor it for a
cross-country-skiing focused holiday, over Ramsau or Obertilliach in
Austria. (but not over France)

Sudtirol is the German-speaking region in northeast Italy. I stayed in
Toblach ("Dobbiaco" in Italian), and I liked the architecture and character

Lars wrote:

Any more inputs on good XC areas in Swiss, Austria, Italia, Germany?

I had the opportunity to write here some time ago about the wonderful
Altopiano di Asiago (Asiago, Gallio, Enego) near Vicenza, Veneto, and
Folgaria (near Trento).
There is plenty of long, nice tracks there!
In Trentino you can also go to Moena, where the Marcialonga takes place.
I also quote what you say about Lavazè, one of the best groomed tracks I
know. Near there also Carezza and Nova Ponente are pretty good, although
less famous (pretty close to Bozen)
In Sudtirol you can also have a look at Alpe di Siusi (Seiser Alp, near
Bozen), Anterselva (Antholz, famous for biathlon races), plus many small
valleys on the way from Bozen to Brenner (e.g. Val Ridanna, a.k.a.
Ridnaun, or Val di Sole).


--
beorn
"You've got to learn to crawl
before you learn to walk"
Aerosmith (Amazing)

Thanks for the recommendation of Seefeld. I had thought its trail network
looked promising from a half-day I skied there a few years ago -- and I like
its regional location within 2-hour diriving range of lots of great
backcountry high-mountain ski touring, and good downhill resorts, the city
of Innsbruck, close to major autobahns and railroad stations -- the sort of
context I would need to justify a 7-day vacation. Last time there I found a
cheap place to stay down in the city of Innsbruck (one of the offsetting
benefits of for the cost of a rental car).

Leutasch is nearby to Seefeld -- did you ski there also? Is it as good as
Seefeld? or did you think of it as part of the Seefeld XC ski trail
network? Also it seemed to me that Innsbruck and Seefeld are in easy driving
range of some of the German ski areas like where they have the Konig Ludwigs
Lauf Worldloppet race.

Goms -- Thanks for the suggestion, I hadn't heard of it before for XC
skiing, though I've driven by it several times on the way to other places
(because it's by Oberwald in the upper Rhone valley, at the west end of the
Furka pass car-train tunnel.) But from the info at www.loipe-goms.ch, I'm
concerned that it might be mostly another one of those
up-and-down-the-valley trail layouts (which the Alps have too many of) --
instead of a richer 2-dimensional network like Seefeld or La Feclaz or
Chapelle des Bois (or any of our favorite North American ski centers).

I can't say I'm impressed by XC conditions in Engadin.

The odd thing is that the upper Engadin is one of the few snowy valleys in
Switzerland wide enough with lots of gentle terrain which could allow a
large rich 2-dimensional trail network -- but they have not taken advantage
of that. Instead I found this 1-dimensional ski marathon route and a small
network around Pontresina.

Worldloppet race "Dolomittenlauf" has start in Lienz.

I was going to try skiing the Dolomitenlauf course, since it's in easy
driving range from Toblach -- but I couldn't find the course map on the Web,
so I drove to Obertilliach to looking for the course, but I guess that
wasn't the place.

I'm not sure I'll be doing a 7 day XC trip to Engadin.

I am sure that I would not do a 7-day trip of pure XC skiing to any single
place in the European Alps. The whole point of going to the Alps is to
combine XC skiing with other fun mountain stuff like backcountry skiing and
downhill skiing and snowboarding, and visits to interesting big cities.

Ken

P.S.
snow security in Europe = rental car.
rental car = diversity of ski places + skiing kinds.
rental car = cheaper lodging options away from best ski trails.
rental car + down jacket and lotsa layers = place to sleep in Europe.
__________________________________________________ _
"Lars" wrote in message
om...
Good post Ken,
In January I posted some stuff and asked for good XC areas in
Switzerland or Austria.

In Switz I found Engadin and Goms to be the big XC areas. After doing
Engadin marathon I can't say I'm impressed by XC conditions in
Engadin. They were good and race was perfect but I'm not sure I'll be
doing a 7day XC trip to Engadin.

In Austria(and Tirol) I found the big XC areas to be: Seefeld,
Lienz(osttirol), St.Johann/Kaiserwinkl. I choose Seefeld and I don't
regret it. Seefeld was a heaven for XC skiing! Perfect tracs, wide,
well groomed, many, skating and classic, easy and challenging tracks.
Definetely worth many days.

How good Osttirol with it's Lienz+Obertilliach is I havn't seen but it
sound very good too. Worldloppet race "Dolomittenlauf" has start in
Lienz. Maybe do it next year. And drive down to Val de Fiemme.

Passo de Lavaze is also a very good XC area. Many tracks and good
grooming. Val de Fiemme on the other hand only has the Marcialonga
tracks and some loops around WM stadion. Not a place for long XC
vacation.

In Germany I have found that most big places from Oberamergau to
Mittenwalt has good XC areas. But my favourite is so far Seefeld. Best
XC area.
_______________________________

Thanks for all those specific suggestions, Beorn.

Can you say which of those northeast Italy valleys has more of a rich
2-dimensional trail network?

My searching so far in the Dolomites has found more 1-dimensional
up-and-down-the-valley trail layouts. What I like anyway is that the trails
I tried were gentler than most other quasi-1-dimensional layouts I've seen
in the Alps, which made it lots funner for a non-racer like me than other
regions. Even more, I feel that the great mountain scenery of northeast
Italy is better compensation for simplistic trail layouts than I've found
elsewhere.

But still it would be good to know which XC ski centers in northwest Italy
offer both a rich 2-dimensional trail network and close views of
spectacular mountain peaks -- so I know which ones to drive to first when I
get there next time.

Some other advantages of Sudtirol for me:

* for backcountry mountain ski tours there is a German-language guidebook:
Skitouren Dolomiten, by Rudolf + Siegrun Weiss, (Steiger Verlag, Augsburg,
1996), ISBN 3-89652-023-7.

* straightforward access from the Milan airport mostly (but not the whole
way) on good autostrada highways (and also possible access north into
Austria to Innsbruck and Seefeld)

Ken
____________________________________
"beorn" wrote
I had the opportunity to write here some time ago about the wonderful
Altopiano di Asiago (Asiago, Gallio, Enego) near Vicenza, Veneto, and
Folgaria (near Trento).
There is plenty of long, nice tracks there!
In Trentino you can also go to Moena, where the Marcialonga takes place.
I also quote what you say about Lavazè, one of the best groomed tracks I
know. Near there also Carezza and Nova Ponente are pretty good, although
less famous (pretty close to Bozen)
In Sudtirol you can also have a look at Alpe di Siusi (Seiser Alp, near
Bozen), Anterselva (Antholz, famous for biathlon races), plus many small
valleys on the way from Bozen to Brenner (e.g. Val Ridanna, a.k.a.
Ridnaun, or Val di Sole).

____________________________________

Ken Roberts wrote:

Can you say which of those northeast Italy valleys has more of a rich
2-dimensional trail network?

well...according to my experience I would say Asiago, esp. if you go to
Gallio (www.centrofondogallio.com) you will start at about 1,560 above
sea level and you can easily climb up to 1,900 (even 2,100 if you want!
but that's not "easily" anymore).
And you have many possibilities to choose different routes up and down
the mountains to climb more...
Also the XC center in Nova Ponente allows you to go from 1,400 to 1,900
which is not bad at all (with long, hard and continuous slopes)

Lavazè is good, but uphill sections are somewhat shorter (you start at
1,800 and can go up to 2,000)
Toblach is rather flat, the same is for Seiser Alm (although you start
at 2,000 and the view on a nice day is IMPRESSIVE).

But still it would be good to know which XC ski centers in northwest Italy

I'm afraid I don't know too much of northwest, but I guess you meant
northeast :-)

Some other advantages of Sudtirol for me:

* straightforward access from the Milan airport mostly (but not the whole
way) on good autostrada highways (and also possible access north into
Austria to Innsbruck and Seefeld)

you're right!
well, I saw somebody suggested Seefeld...that's also very nice, although
a little bit too much on the touristical side for me...but it is a must go!
and if you try the worldcup track...well, that's some serious climbing :-)

--
beorn
"You've got to learn to crawl
before you learn to walk"
Aerosmith (Amazing)

Does anyone have good knowledge of XC conditions in Lienz? other than
the Dolomit race?

So far only Toblach and Seiser Alm sounds like big and great XC
resorts in Osttirol. When I say great I mean ...eh... at last 30km
perfect freestyle tracks and just as much classic in a nice close
network with many loops giving variations.

"Ken Roberts" wrote in message ...
Thanks for the recommendation of Seefeld.Last time there I found a
cheap place to stay down in the city of Innsbruck (one of the offsetting
benefits of for the cost of a rental car).

I found it very important to stay on Seefeld centrum. Easy walk to
great XC tracks. If you stay at bed&breakfast and on east side of
railway station it's half price. 50euro per person per night private
bath. that's cheap in Olympic Seefeld. I must point out that all
tracks were alot wider and better than the pictures I found on the
web. Why not update?

Leutasch is nearby to Seefeld -- did you ski there also? Is it as good as
Seefeld?

Leutasch is part of the "Seefeld xc track network" as I see it.
Leutasch is realy neigbour valley but well connected with XC tracks.
And yes I did ski in Leutasch, one day. The Ganghoferlauf skimarathon
of 42km is "all XC tracks of Leutasch". See last picture of this page:
http://www.turrennklubben.no/tur_seefeld2005.htm
Oberammergau and King Ludwig lauf is very close to Seefeld. A quick
train og car ride.

of that. Instead I found this 1-dimensional ski marathon route and a small
network around Pontresina.

I stayed in Pontresina. Good place to stay if doing the Engadin race.
It's cheaper than St.Moritz and practical with transport.

Worldloppet race "Dolomittenlauf" has start in Lienz.

I was going to try skiing the Dolomitenlauf course, since it's in easy
driving range from Toblach -- but I couldn't find the course map on the Web,
so I drove to Obertilliach to looking for the course, but I guess that
wasn't the place.

Dolomitten lauf starts in Lienz and goes south east, then return back
to Lienz. Obertillach is the place for the classic Dolomitten lauf,
the same day.

I am sure that I would not do a 7-day trip of pure XC skiing to any single
place in the European Alps.

Seefeld is truly worth 7-14 day stay. But I'm not sure other places
are.

Anyone other great XC places in central Europe?

To offer a hint of how spectacular it can be to ski on the groomed
cross-country tracks in Sudtirol, I put a couple of photos up on a web page:
http://roberts-1.com/t/s05/ea/k/#Sudtirol
It was a cloudy day, but I think it think it shows a kind of jagged
mountains and rocks you don't get to see from most XC ski trails.

And it offers somebody an excuse to ski there on a blue-sky day and then
post better photos -- or perhaps Beorn has some already he can share.

I didn't see any views around the Ramsau main trails or Obertilliach in
Austria were close to as spectacular as in the Sudtirol region on northeast
Italy.

(the other photos above those are from two off-trail tours, near the Engadin
in Switzerland and in northern Austria).

Ken

Ken Roberts wrote:

It was a cloudy day, but I think it think it shows a kind of jagged
mountains and rocks you don't get to see from most XC ski trails.

And it offers somebody an excuse to ski there on a blue-sky day and then
post better photos -- or perhaps Beorn has some already he can share.

I will have a look if I find something :-)
For sure, it's easier that I have something in summertime, but I will
check...
but I guess Pustertal is one of the nicest places you could ski!

I didn't see any views around the Ramsau main trails or Obertilliach in
Austria were close to as spectacular as in the Sudtirol region on northeast
Italy.

I think Tirol has wonderful spots too, Seefeld is a good example.
Yet, there must be some reason why Dolomites are so well known, isn'it? ;-)


--
beorn
"You've got to learn to crawl
before you learn to walk"
Aerosmith (Amazing)

beorn wrote
I think Tirol has wonderful spots too, Seefeld is a good example.
Yet, there must be some reason why Dolomites are so well known, isn'it?
;-)

Well here's an answer to that which I just found in my paper mail -- from
the latest club newsletter by some English-speaking members of an Austrian
club -- from an article comparing hiking/climbing vacations they've taken in
different regions of the Eastern Alps:

"One of my favorite areas of the Alps is the Sudtirol, due to the scenery,
cuisine and culture."

(of course Sudtirol is not in Austria, but that didn't stop this
Austrian-club writer from talking about it)

Ken
____________________________________
beorn wrote
. . . but I guess Pustertal is one of the nicest places you could ski!

I didn't see any views around the Ramsau main trails or Obertilliach in
Austria were close to as spectacular as in the Sudtirol region on
northeast
Italy.

I think Tirol has wonderful spots too, Seefeld is a good example.
Yet, there must be some reason why Dolomites are so well known, isn'it?
;-)
______________________________________