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#1
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Skid, slip, and carved turn
Based on the quality of a turn, a downhill ski turn can be classified
in three categories: carved turn, skidded turn, and slipped turn. A carved turn is made by the technique called "carving," where the ski is made traveling along the curvature of reverse chamber of the ski without any slippage; i.e. the tail of the ski follows the tip of the ski along the curved path in a synchronized manner. A skidded turn happens when the tail of the ski moves downhill with a slightly faster rate than the tip of the ski, which causes the ski over-turn. And a slipped turn is when the tip of the ski moves downhill faster than the tail, which straightens the curved path somewhat, is an under-turn. What makes the carved turn so special is that, while both skidding and slipping rob the speed/energy of the ski, carving maintains its turning ability without losing its speed. The caveat is, nevertheless, that the skier must continue to turn to carve, thus reduces the skier's forward speed. Most of parallel turns are done with skidding turn, where skidding serves dual purposes of breaking and turning. Though flatboarding employs all three techniques to maintain a proper/desired line, it generally utilizes flat board and slipping turn for faster speed and straighter line downhill. Five-year-old Andrea asked, why she had to turn when she only wanted to go there/straight? Interesting, IS |
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#2
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yunlong wrote:
Based on the quality of a turn, a downhill ski turn can be classified in three categories: carved turn, skidded turn, and slipped turn. Based on the "quality" of a turn? Foot, help me out here. Quality supposes "good", "bad", and other subjective descriptions. I think we need to get back to the mechanics of skiing. "A turn can be initiated by skidding, slipping (we are going to have a discussion on the difference between these two, but I think I know what you are talking about) or by rolling the ankles and bending the ski into a 'carve'." Is this what you want to say? A carved turn is made by the technique called "carving," where the ski is made traveling along the curvature of reverse chamber of the ski without any slippage; i.e. the tail of the ski follows the tip of the ski along the curved path in a synchronized manner. A carved turn is made by carving. Yeah, right. I actually think you can do better than this with the language. It is considered a mistake to define a word with the same word or a different form of the word. But I'm not so sure. "where the ski is made TO TRAVEL along" the path described by the curve of the ski, either the sidecut radius or as reduced by bending. The tail of the ski follows the tip of the ski along the curved path described above. (forget "synchronized manner".) A skidded turn happens when the tail of the ski moves downhill with a slightly faster rate than the tip of the ski, That's mechanics, OK. which causes the ski over-turn. wrong choice of words. "over-turn" can mean either to turn too much or tip over. Neither meaning is what you wanted. You may be thinking of "over-steer" and "under-steer" as applied to driving a car, it doesn't work for skiing. The skid can be the entire turn until you set your edges to stop turning (or initiate a skid in the opposite direction). Or it can be the beginning of a carved arc where the skid gets you turning in the direction you want to go, you set your edges and apply pressure to the outside ski and carve an arc. Very effective in the days when skis didn't have much sidecut. And a slipped turn is when the tip of the ski moves downhill faster than the tail, which straightens the curved path somewhat, is an under-turn. I'm not sure about this. If the slip reduces the amount the ski is turning, isn't it an "ANTI-TURN"? I can't imagine a situation where allowing the tip to slip out is desirable EXCEPT in "falling leaf" which is a survival, extreme braking move when you are deep do do. What makes the carved turn so special is that, while both skidding and slipping rob the speed/energy of the ski, carving maintains its turning ability without losing its speed. True, the carved turn itself does not cause braking. It will help to control your speed by causing you to take a longer path down the mountain which, by definition is a less steep path down the mountain. The caveat is, nevertheless, that the skier must continue to turn to carve, thus reduces the skier's forward speed. I'm not even going to try to translate this. You might be saying that the longer path slows you down. Most of parallel turns are done with skidding turn, where skidding serves dual purposes of breaking and turning. True, especially on steeps. Though flatboarding employs all three techniques to maintain a proper/desired line, Okay... it generally utilizes flat board and slipping turn for faster speed and straighter line downhill. As above, I can't imagine a situation where slipping the tips is a good thing. Further, for me to slip the tips of my skis as described, I need to be in the back seat. Is this what your are proposing? Five-year-old Andrea asked, why she had to turn when she only wanted to go there/straight? Is it time for something a little steeper? But with a bunny berm at the end. Interesting, IS My question to you is... Why do you post these word pictures of skiing that may or may not be accurate, including inaccuracies in the understanding of the language? This is a newsgroup made up of skiers who mostly have a decent understanding of the mechanics and who don't need instruction at this very elementary level. Are you trying out explanations for your teaching on us? If so, you might enlighten us and ask for our input rather that insult us when we say you are not making sense. It is a sure thing that the folks who post here are not going to adopt your method as an end-all be-all skiing technique for ourselves. Many of us could do perfectly what you have shown us in your videos. But why would we want to? Foot, OTOH, is suggesting words and methods for teaching and is trying to convince us to teach without ego (if indeed any of us are teachers). One of the things you have shown us here (I said shown, not proven that you own) is a huge ego. You have also shown us that at best you have a barely adequate grasp of the mechanics. This last may well be a failure in language, not actual knowledge. But the ego is still there. "My way is the only right way and you are an idiot if you don't agree." This is what you sound like. VtSkier |
#3
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VtSkier wrote:
yunlong wrote: Based on the quality of a turn, a downhill ski turn can be classified in three categories: carved turn, skidded turn, and slipped turn. Based on the "quality" of a turn? Foot, help me out here. Quality supposes "good", "bad", and other subjective descriptions. I think we need to get back to the mechanics of skiing. Fast line, smooth transition, and clean, yes, these are some desired "quality" of a turn. "A turn can be initiated by skidding, slipping (we are going to have a discussion on the difference between these two, but I think I know what you are talking about) or by rolling the ankles and bending the ski into a 'carve'." Is this what you want to say? Not exactly, I was saying there are three kinds of turn in downhill skiing, and each has its usage and shortfall. A carved turn is made by the technique called "carving," where the ski is made traveling along the curvature of reverse chamber of the ski without any slippage; i.e. the tail of the ski follows the tip of the ski along the curved path in a synchronized manner. A carved turn is made by carving. Exactly, I might have used "like carving a piece of wood" to describe it, as if you have ever done wood-carving, you'd know what that means; however, how many of you have ever done wood-carving? Yeah, right. I actually think you can do better than this with the language. It is considered a mistake to define a word with the same word or a different form of the word. You do get the meaning, don't you? But I'm not so sure. "where the ski is made TO TRAVEL along" the path described by the curve of the ski, either the sidecut radius or as reduced by bending. The tail of the ski follows the tip of the ski along the curved path described above. (forget "synchronized manner".) What are you not so sure about? A skidded turn happens when the tail of the ski moves downhill with a slightly faster rate than the tip of the ski, That's mechanics, OK. which causes the ski over-turn. wrong choice of words. "over-turn" can mean either to turn too much or tip over. Neither meaning is what you wanted. "Over-turn," as used to describe in skiing turn, would naturally mean "turn too much," don't you think? As you used "tip over" what "tip" do you mean? Wrangling the words. You may be thinking of "over-steer" and "under-steer" as applied to driving a car, it doesn't work for skiing. Yup, we know how your partitioned thinking works; however, skid and slip are actually physics terms, and the phenomena scientific facts. The skid can be the entire turn until you set your edges to stop turning (or initiate a skid in the opposite direction). Or it can be the beginning of a carved arc where the skid gets you turning in the direction you want to go, you set your edges and apply pressure to the outside ski and carve an arc. Very effective in the days when skis didn't have much sidecut. Not sure what you're getting at; wherever you have your ski tail moved faster than you ski tip during a turn, you are skidding. And a slipped turn is when the tip of the ski moves downhill faster than the tail, which straightens the curved path somewhat, is an under-turn. I'm not sure about this. If the slip reduces the amount the ski is turning, isn't it an "ANTI-TURN"? Yes, as it is an "ANTI-TURN," the "line" would be straighter, thus faster. I can't imagine a situation where allowing the tip to slip out is desirable EXCEPT in "falling leaf" which is a survival, extreme braking move when you are deep do do. When you wash-out on skidding, only way to recover is to slip the tip downhill. And when you slip the tip, the line would be straighter, so you gain a better "downward"/"forward" speed. What makes the carved turn so special is that, while both skidding and slipping rob the speed/energy of the ski, carving maintains its turning ability without losing its speed. True, the carved turn itself does not cause braking. It will help to control your speed by causing you to take a longer path down the mountain which, by definition is a less steep path down the mountain. No, the carved turn slows itself down, or balances against gravity by continuing turning uphill, yes, the longer path. The caveat is, nevertheless, that the skier must continue to turn to carve, thus reduces the skier's forward speed. I'm not even going to try to translate this. You might be saying that the longer path slows you down. That's true, too, as the forward speed goes. Most of parallel turns are done with skidding turn, where skidding serves dual purposes of breaking and turning. True, especially on steeps. Though flatboarding employs all three techniques to maintain a proper/desired line, Okay... it generally utilizes flat board and slipping turn for faster speed and straighter line downhill. As above, I can't imagine a situation where slipping the tips is a good thing. Further, for me to slip the tips of my skis as described, I need to be in the back seat. Is this what your are proposing? You cannot slip the tips by sitting back seat; you can only do skid with that posture. Slipping the tips is done by pressing the uphill edges--the little toe side edge of the inside ski and the big toe side of the outside ski--downward (away from the hill), which can only be done with the pressure on the little ball of foot and little toe side edge of the inside ski, which can only be done by moving your knee so much forward to press the boot that your heel is actually suspended inside your boot. Five-year-old Andrea asked, why she had to turn when she only wanted to go there/straight? Is it time for something a little steeper? But with a bunny berm at the end. That little girl, now 6, is actually a black diamond skier at the Heavenly. Interesting, IS My question to you is... Why do you post these word pictures of skiing that may or may not be accurate, Skid, slip, and carved turn are physics terms and scientific facts; only thing inaccurate here is your knowledge about it. including inaccuracies in the understanding of the language? Spare me your comment on language, your half-baked understanding does not impress me. This is a newsgroup made up of skiers who mostly have a decent understanding of the mechanics and who don't need instruction at this very elementary level. Maybe you should go back to the basic so you may actually learn something new? How do you slip the tip again? Are you trying out explanations for your teaching on us? I am talking about how I ski, what, feel that you are been taught? If so, you might enlighten us Yes, I have provided you information on these scientific facts, and ask for our input you have no input but babbling. rather that insult us when we say you are not making sense. As I said, you can only be insulted by your own incompetence. It is a sure thing that the folks who post here are not going to adopt your method as an end-all be-all skiing technique for ourselves. It's your skiing, not something I care. Many of us could do perfectly what you have shown us in your videos. Yeah right. Actually, you have seen nothing yet. But why would we want to? To enjoy the thrill of the ultimate "free" skiing? Foot, OTOH, is suggesting words and methods for teaching and is trying to convince us to teach without ego (if indeed any of us are teachers). One of the things you have shown us here (I said shown, not proven that you own) is a huge ego. You have also shown us that at best you have a barely adequate grasp of the mechanics. That's what you said, or maybe you just don't know enough? This last may well be a failure in language, not actual knowledge. But the ego is still there. Ego isn't a problem, we all have one; it is egotism that is the problem. "My way is the only right way and you are an idiot if you don't agree." That's your egotism talking. This is what you sound like. Egotism is one who boasts beyond one's own ability/knowledge to make oneself [self-]important. That's what you sound like. IS VtSkier |
#4
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Sven Golly wrote:
"yunlong" wrote in oups.com: A carved turn is made by the technique called "carving," where the ski is made traveling along the curvature of reverse chamber of the ski without any slippage; i.e. the tail of the ski follows the tip of the ski along the curved path in a synchronized manner. A skidded turn happens when the tail of the ski moves downhill with a slightly faster rate than the tip of the ski, which causes the ski over-turn. And a slipped turn is when the tip of the ski moves downhill faster than the tail, which straightens the curved path somewhat, is an under-turn This mostly nonsense. 1. Carving is a combination of reverse camber (arc) and sidecut. So you think that your "reverse camber" has a better meaning than my "reverse chamber"? 2. Slipping / skidding / sliding / whatever - they're all the same. NO ONE in the entire world makes any distinction except apparently you. "The entire world" maybe an exaggeration, nevertheless, to skid the tail to brake and to slip the tip to go do have a definite distinction and different function. The reason a skidded turn works is because either the front or the tail of the ski is gripping the snow while the other isn't. Why create a new definition when you can just simply say "skid" the tails or "skid" the tips? "Skid the tips"? Yo VtSkier, what do you think? 3. There is no such thing as an under-turn or over-turn -- at least not in the sense that you're describing. They are turns. An "over turn" in classic language is where you've turned out of the fall line too far and have to make an exaggerated motion to come back around. Beginning powder skiers over turn a lot. The "over turn" here is to describe the ski turns/changing direction more than the carved/standard turn. Now, you may produce an effect similar to under-steering or over-steering in a car via the skidded turn but that is NOT an over-turn or under-turn. Skidding and slipping are actually used for minor line adjustment without a full blown turning, and consequently enable the skier to "track" a desired/perceived line. I sure hope no beginners or intermediates are paying attention to you. They are. You could set their development back an entire season or two with this ****e. What if they actually save themselves a season or two of learning time, ****head? IS -- Sven Golly Trolling as usual |
#5
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"yunlong" wrote:
A carved turn is made by carving. Exactly, I might have used "like carving a piece of wood" to describe it, as if you have ever done wood-carving, you'd know what that means; however, how many of you have ever done wood-carving? Moi. Je carve comme your vache espaniole. It's all in the honing baby. Yeah, right. I actually think you can do better than this with the language. It is considered a mistake to define a word with the same word or a different form of the word. You do get the meaning, don't you? Our technology has evolved at a far too rapid a rate for our stagnant minds. But I'm not so sure. "where the ski is made TO TRAVEL along" the path described by the curve of the ski, either the sidecut radius or as reduced by bending. The tail of the ski follows the tip of the ski along the curved path described above. (forget "synchronized manner".) What are you not so sure about? I'm sure that I need to ski more. When I move to Santa Fe I'm going to jump over a highway somewhere near Taos. It will be photographed and then broadcast widely over the internet, at which point I'll retire, consider myelf a success and start telemarking. JP ************************* AT. It's more than just a tire. A skidded turn happens when the tail of the ski moves downhill with a slightly faster rate than the tip of the ski, That's mechanics, OK. which causes the ski over-turn. wrong choice of words. "over-turn" can mean either to turn too much or tip over. Neither meaning is what you wanted. "Over-turn," as used to describe in skiing turn, would naturally mean "turn too much," don't you think? As you used "tip over" what "tip" do you mean? Wrangling the words. You may be thinking of "over-steer" and "under-steer" as applied to driving a car, it doesn't work for skiing. Yup, we know how your partitioned thinking works; however, skid and slip are actually physics terms, and the phenomena scientific facts. The skid can be the entire turn until you set your edges to stop turning (or initiate a skid in the opposite direction). Or it can be the beginning of a carved arc where the skid gets you turning in the direction you want to go, you set your edges and apply pressure to the outside ski and carve an arc. Very effective in the days when skis didn't have much sidecut. Not sure what you're getting at; wherever you have your ski tail moved faster than you ski tip during a turn, you are skidding. And a slipped turn is when the tip of the ski moves downhill faster than the tail, which straightens the curved path somewhat, is an under-turn. I'm not sure about this. If the slip reduces the amount the ski is turning, isn't it an "ANTI-TURN"? Yes, as it is an "ANTI-TURN," the "line" would be straighter, thus faster. I can't imagine a situation where allowing the tip to slip out is desirable EXCEPT in "falling leaf" which is a survival, extreme braking move when you are deep do do. When you wash-out on skidding, only way to recover is to slip the tip downhill. And when you slip the tip, the line would be straighter, so you gain a better "downward"/"forward" speed. What makes the carved turn so special is that, while both skidding and slipping rob the speed/energy of the ski, carving maintains its turning ability without losing its speed. True, the carved turn itself does not cause braking. It will help to control your speed by causing you to take a longer path down the mountain which, by definition is a less steep path down the mountain. No, the carved turn slows itself down, or balances against gravity by continuing turning uphill, yes, the longer path. The caveat is, nevertheless, that the skier must continue to turn to carve, thus reduces the skier's forward speed. I'm not even going to try to translate this. You might be saying that the longer path slows you down. That's true, too, as the forward speed goes. Most of parallel turns are done with skidding turn, where skidding serves dual purposes of breaking and turning. True, especially on steeps. Though flatboarding employs all three techniques to maintain a proper/desired line, Okay... it generally utilizes flat board and slipping turn for faster speed and straighter line downhill. As above, I can't imagine a situation where slipping the tips is a good thing. Further, for me to slip the tips of my skis as described, I need to be in the back seat. Is this what your are proposing? You cannot slip the tips by sitting back seat; you can only do skid with that posture. Slipping the tips is done by pressing the uphill edges--the little toe side edge of the inside ski and the big toe side of the outside ski--downward (away from the hill), which can only be done with the pressure on the little ball of foot and little toe side edge of the inside ski, which can only be done by moving your knee so much forward to press the boot that your heel is actually suspended inside your boot. Five-year-old Andrea asked, why she had to turn when she only wanted to go there/straight? Is it time for something a little steeper? But with a bunny berm at the end. That little girl, now 6, is actually a black diamond skier at the Heavenly. Interesting, IS My question to you is... Why do you post these word pictures of skiing that may or may not be accurate, Skid, slip, and carved turn are physics terms and scientific facts; only thing inaccurate here is your knowledge about it. including inaccuracies in the understanding of the language? Spare me your comment on language, your half-baked understanding does not impress me. This is a newsgroup made up of skiers who mostly have a decent understanding of the mechanics and who don't need instruction at this very elementary level. Maybe you should go back to the basic so you may actually learn something new? How do you slip the tip again? Are you trying out explanations for your teaching on us? I am talking about how I ski, what, feel that you are been taught? If so, you might enlighten us Yes, I have provided you information on these scientific facts, and ask for our input you have no input but babbling. rather that insult us when we say you are not making sense. As I said, you can only be insulted by your own incompetence. It is a sure thing that the folks who post here are not going to adopt your method as an end-all be-all skiing technique for ourselves. It's your skiing, not something I care. Many of us could do perfectly what you have shown us in your videos. Yeah right. Actually, you have seen nothing yet. But why would we want to? To enjoy the thrill of the ultimate "free" skiing? Foot, OTOH, is suggesting words and methods for teaching and is trying to convince us to teach without ego (if indeed any of us are teachers). One of the things you have shown us here (I said shown, not proven that you own) is a huge ego. You have also shown us that at best you have a barely adequate grasp of the mechanics. That's what you said, or maybe you just don't know enough? This last may well be a failure in language, not actual knowledge. But the ego is still there. Ego isn't a problem, we all have one; it is egotism that is the problem. "My way is the only right way and you are an idiot if you don't agree." That's your egotism talking. This is what you sound like. Egotism is one who boasts beyond one's own ability/knowledge to make oneself [self-]important. That's what you sound like. IS VtSkier |
#6
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Sven Golly wrote: "yunlong" wrote in oups.com: 2. Slipping / skidding / sliding / whatever - they're all the same. NO ONE in the entire world makes any distinction except apparently you. The reason a skidded turn works is because either the front or the tail of the ski is gripping the snow while the other isn't. Why create a new definition when you can just simply say "skid" the tails or "skid" the tips? One can also "skid" both the tails and tips at the same time to a varying degree. |
#7
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Sven Golly wrote:
"yunlong" wrote in oups.com: A carved turn is made by the technique called "carving," where the ski is made traveling along the curvature of reverse chamber of the ski without any slippage; i.e. the tail of the ski follows the tip of the ski along the curved path in a synchronized manner. A skidded turn happens when the tail of the ski moves downhill with a slightly faster rate than the tip of the ski, which causes the ski over-turn. And a slipped turn is when the tip of the ski moves downhill faster than the tail, which straightens the curved path somewhat, is an under-turn This mostly nonsense. 1. Carving is a combination of reverse camber (arc) and sidecut. Ding, ding, ding! Succinct and accurate. In control, your edge contact is on the front and the back of the ski. G-force drives the skier into the ski and causes it to bend in the arc that you describe. It is also one of the sweet sensations in life... 2. Slipping / skidding / sliding / whatever - they're all the same. NO ONE in the entire world makes any distinction except apparently you. The reason a skidded turn works is because either the front or the tail of the ski is gripping the snow while the other isn't. Why create a new definition when you can just simply say "skid" the tails or "skid" the tips? This conforms with my understanding. I'd be inclined to say that in most cases, the front shovel edge bites the snow while the tail slips. 3. There is no such thing as an under-turn or over-turn -- at least not in the sense that you're describing. They are turns. An "over turn" in classic language is where you've turned out of the fall line too far and have to make an exaggerated motion to come back around. Beginning powder skiers over turn a lot. Overturns, as you've described them, are responsible for more speed loss than anything I can think of short of a yard sale. Jeff |
#8
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Sven Golly wrote:
Jeff wrote in news:qc4Pd.35513$8a6.6053@trndny09: I've found VtSkier to be accurate, informative and an asset to the group. Conversely, you've filled threads with screeds that have NOTHING to do with skiing. If you don't like the people in this group, then why don't you find another place to play? He has no other place. His life revolves around RSA. But you knew that. G I'm learning... More importantly, he's focused on the topic at hand... Jeff |
#9
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Sven Golly wrote:
"yunlong" wrote in oups.com: 1. Carving is a combination of reverse camber (arc) and sidecut. So you think that your "reverse camber" has a better meaning than my "reverse chamber"? No. However, my inclusion of sidecut as a major factor is more complete and accurate. Maybe, or you just draw a snake with legs? (unnecessary and clumsy.) What happens to the skis without sidecut, do they still carve? 2. Slipping / skidding / sliding / whatever - they're all the same. NO ONE in the entire world makes any distinction except apparently you. "The entire world" maybe an exaggeration, nevertheless, to skid the tail to brake and to slip the tip to go do have a definite distinction and different function. No they don't. Yes, they do. Certainly no one speaking English is going to know what mechanical differences are between slipping and skidding as it applies to skis. If the English speakers don't distinguish the difference between slipping and skidding, why do they create two different words? That's to say you know little and talk big. The "over turn" here is to describe the ski turns/changing direction more than the carved/standard turn. Then pick some better words. What do you suggest? By the way, the skis themselves may change direction more in a skidded turn than in an carved turn but that doesn't mean the skier is producing shorter radius turns. Unlike slipping, if you skid, you are turning/changing direction. He/she may or may not be. Then he/she may fall, that is, washout. Skidding and slipping are actually used for minor line adjustment without a full blown turning, and consequently enable the skier to "track" a desired/perceived line. Carving can do the same thing. What's your point? No, don't think you can make line adjustment with carving; i.e. carving only goes one direction--follows the turning track--if you make a line adjustment to the other direction, you'll be slipping. I sure hope no beginners or intermediates are paying attention to you. They are. Damn. Can't stand others making progress? You could set their development back an entire season or two with this ****e. What if they actually save themselves a season or two of learning time, ****head? What if the sky were made of chocolate milk? Kids like it. IS -- Sven Golly Trolling as usual Remove "_" to reply |
#10
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Sven Golly wrote:
"yunlong" No, don't think you can make line adjustment with carving; i.e. carving only goes one direction--follows the turning track--if you make a line adjustment to the other direction, you'll be slipping. Then you aren't a good enough skier. Stop by for a lesson. This is probably as good a proof as any that Mister flat-mouth doesn't have the foggiest idea what carving is (well, other than those embarrassing home videos he's posted, of course.) Contrary to what he implies, a skier is most definitely *not* locked into one radius for a carved turn. One can carve short radius turns, long radius turns, or any radius in between. Or change radius mid turn. -- //-Walt // // There is no Völkl Conspiracy |
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