Skating and bonking

"levi" wrote
It's all about how much glycogen is stored in your liver and how you use
it.
That's the theory behind carbo loading. I don't have the information at
hand,
but if I recall correctly, it takes almost half an hour just for carbs to
be utilized after you eat them. Fat doesn't do you any good at all in the
2-4
hour time frame. It actually takes glycogen to burn fat and it takes
glycogen
just to digest fat. You'll never run out of fat, why bother adding more
during a race?

My experience is that fat fuel is needed for long ski outings in cold
weather. My stab at quantifying it would be outings of 3 hours or more in
temperatures of -10C or less. On a 50K race it's probably at the latter
stages of the race that you really start to bonk on sugar fuels alone. In
cold weather, intense XC skiing you're burning up over 1000 calories an
hour. The normal metabolic take up is highly accelerated well beyond
"normal". That's why I think you need more slow burning fuel than glycogen.
On the Canadian Ski Marathon, I was on my skis for over 8 hours on day 1,
temps were ~-5C, and over 11 hour on day two with temps between -23C
and -12C. On day two of the CSM, my body was literally craving for fat, and
if anything I have a tad too high a BMI for a skier (~24).

My "theory" is based on personal experimentation and experience with a lot
of anecdotal observations in terms of Arctic and Antarctic expedition
readings. E.g. as well as my long distance skiing experience, I was on an
Arctic survey team once where we spent 3 weeks in March above the Arctic
Circle (near a place with the lovely name of Tuktoyaktuk) at a field camp
with average day temperatures ~-25C and with a lot of fairly intense daily
physical labour. Our bodies craved fat so badly that we used to eat straight
butter sticks with lunch- something that I would normally find repulsive.
Also the traditional Inuit winter diet is essentially fat with some
proteins. The Inuit had almost no sugars in their diets until the Europeans
arrived. (BTW, this is becoming problematic in more ways that one now.
There is so much atmospheric pollution dumping into the Arctic waters that
the traditional sources of Inuit diet, such as whale blubber, are becoming
toxic. Snowmobiles and satellite TV have also changed the dietary
requirements...)

It would be interesting to dig into the research though. I wonder how much
scientific, or even field, testing the gel and power bar industry has done
in terms of endurance cold weather athletics performance of their products.

Parham.

On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 07:59:27 -0500, "Eddy Rapid"
wrote:

On a 50K race it's probably at the latter
stages of the race that you really start to bonk on sugar fuels alone.

You can't bonk if you keep taking in sugar throughout the workout.
The problem that people like Onno and me have is that we don't consume
enough during the event due to gloves, frozen food and drink, lack of
attention, trying to stay with ohter people during the race, balance,
etc etc.

My "theory" is based on personal experimentation and experience with a lot
of anecdotal observations in terms of Arctic and Antarctic expedition
readings.

Those people take fat because it's effective in terms of
calories/weight -- they need to pack for the long haul. And it's an
important part of the diet in general. But comparing what's need to
go well for three or four hours and whats needed for health over 3
weeks are quite different.

The Inuit had almost no sugars in their diets until the Europeans
arrived.

So what? Is there any source of sugar growing naturally in their
environment?

JFT

On Wed, 18 Feb 2004, Rob Bradlee wrote:

3. Might want to leave the wrapper on until you're ready
to eat it.

My friend hung one on a string unwrapped, and under his clothes against
his chest. Pulled it out at the 45K mark - covered with chest hair.
Now, how bad do you want to avoid a bonk at that point?

Hmm. I suppose that all depends. 45K out of 50? 55? 60? :-)

-Mitch

"John Forrest Tomlinson"
On a 50K race it's probably at the latter
stages of the race that you really start to bonk on sugar fuels alone.

You can't bonk if you keep taking in sugar throughout the workout.
The problem that people like Onno and me have is that we don't consume
enough during the event due to gloves, frozen food and drink, lack of
attention, trying to stay with ohter people during the race, balance,
etc etc.

Well, I just provided my tips on how to address this, regardless of whether
you accept my "nutritional theory" or not. Misery is often more optional
than we think ;-)

My "theory" is based on personal experimentation and experience with a
lot
of anecdotal observations in terms of Arctic and Antarctic expedition
readings.

Those people take fat because it's effective in terms of
calories/weight -- they need to pack for the long haul. And it's an
important part of the diet in general.

Yes. But it's also what your body needs to metabolize in this kind of
environment for constant energy output-- at least in my personal
experience and having observed it in real field situations in the Arctic.

But comparing what's need to
go well for three or four hours and whats needed for health over 3
weeks are quite different.

True. And so far we have various pet theories as to what is needed over
three to four hours of cold weather skiing. So, I tend to use the pet theory
that works for me.

The Inuit had almost no sugars in their diets until the Europeans
arrived.

So what? Is there any source of sugar growing naturally in their
environment?

Ah, let me think long and hard on this one, John. No! :-) To me it means
that a high fat diet was a suitable adaptation for the Arctic environment,
where cold weather endurance was called for. And we may have something to
learn from it, if we are so inclined.

Parham.

The food sounds great but the chalk pouch on the leg? My garsh, man, the thing
would bounce! Some other kind of pouch. If I was a way-fast skier though I
wouldn't want no belt. But there's always a fashion solution... I want to do
that CSM where ya need BACON to MAKE IT!

--

Jeff Potter
****
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Mitch Collinsworth wrote:

Yes. And if I'd kept skiing much maybe I could kept it, too.

That subtle feel of skating!

Jeff, how is your "lose 10 pounds" goal coming? My goals you might
remember were 1. lose 10 pounds, and 2. lose 10 more pounds, and I
was looking to challenge you to see who could lose their 10 first.

182! Now that it's ski season, it's finally coming off.

And I've said no to all vacation offers. Roadtrips and restaurants are DOOM to a
diet. Less beer has helped as well.

The pants are starting to fit no problem. Back in the 34's!

But I think I haven't lost 10 til I solidly see 180. That's my goal---to make 180 in
time for the last race of the season: Black Mt. I'll fly up the hills! (Ha! 165
would be more like flying.)

Uh, I just checked WHEN that race is: March *SIX*---yikes. I was hoping later on...
: ) Well, let's see if I make the 10 pounds! Two-a-days in the yard, comin' up!

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publisher of outdoor/indoor do-it-yourself culture...
...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies...
...rare books on ski, bike, boat culture, plus a Gulf Coast thriller
about smalltown smuggling ... radical novels coming up!
...original downloadable music ... and articles galore!
plus national travel forums! HOLY SMOKES! 800-763-6923

One of the major beneifts of the "Flying Herringbone" is it's use in
"Mass Start" races were the hills back up. It is the only technique
that you can stop at anywere in the cycle and start up again without
resetting. SO if you're in a long line going up a hill and the line
stops, you can just stop right were you are and then begin again.
This is not possible if you were V1'ing and had to stop. You have to
reset yourself and start the V1 str ke over again. It also allows for
closer following on a climb so more people get up the hill faster.
Several years ago in the Birke even Wave 1 skiers were doing it on
hills because the slow was slow and deep. I find I have to do it in
preparation for the Birke, because it uses different muscles and I get
too sore if I don't practice it before the Birke. From wave 4
virtually every big hill is a "Conga Line" of people doing the Flying
Herringbone or what I like to call it "The Birke Shuffle"

Diagonal skate is a useful technique. It is very efficient, so if you
can use it and keep up with pack you are skiing in, then go for it.
On hills that back up, use it. But, it is most definitely slower than
V1. About the only time I use it is on very steep uphills at the tail
end of a race (i.e., when getting very tired). There is nowhere on
the Birkie trail that qualifies (i.e., even Bitch Hill).

Brian

That chest hair might be a good source of protein for the post-race
recovery. The received wisdom these days seems to be to include some
protein in that. (Or am I wrong in assuming hair is full of protein-too
many shampoo commercials?)

Best, Peter

On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 09:08:40 -0500, "Eddy Rapid"
wrote:



True. And so far we have various pet theories as to what is needed over
three to four hours of cold weather skiing. So, I tend to use the pet theory
that works for me.

Pet theories are fine. But when they radically conflict with vast
amounts of evidence about sports performance, maybe they shouldn't be
brought up. I cannot think of ever hearing from a nutritionist or a
scientiic study that hydrogenated oils have any value in a sporting
event of about three hours.

That suggests that hydrogenated oil for such an event is not a pet
theory, it's a quack theory. Or if you're just describing what works
for you in 8 hour or longer events, fine. But I don't see the value
of that in talking about a 50K ski race.

Ah, let me think long and hard on this one, John. No! :-) To me it means
that a high fat diet was a suitable adaptation for the Arctic environment,
where cold weather endurance was called for. And we may have something to
learn from it, if we are so inclined.

If you don't see the difference between a three hour ski race and a
lifetime living in artic conditions, perhaps you should do some quiet
thinking for awhile.

JT