To pole or not to pole

Kurt Knisely wrote:
In article .com,
tiandiren
says...

An asymmetric wedge? Wow, newz to me...

Maybe you haven't seen much?

'Can't see the wedge. Can you?

Didn't see the "single" ski tip?

OK, maybe I'm starting to understand now, yes, I saw the single ski
tip, but
these days, that doesn't mean they were "wedging", (although I do
wedge a little
myself on some turns--depends upon the conditions and the gear I'm on
that day).

The wedge is always there in tele, the parallel skiing on tele
equipment has a different ski configuration and different way of
handling.



Nope haven't seen much,

In fact, the asymmetric wedge is the classic signature of
telemark skiing.

Classic, on narrow 210s.

Yup, those were what I skied on.


..
I think he has fairly good form in these shots?

He didn't fall, he didn't get stuck, yup, he did the powder.
Is that you?

He doesn't fall often and that's usually after breaking a tip on a
rock wall.
Not me, I'm the photographer.

Figured.

sting


-K

AstroPax wrote:
On 26 Jan 2005 13:57:42 -0800, "tiandiren"
wrote:

In powder?

Yes,
http://www.taomartialarts.com/ski/ski_p_tele3.jpg

You call that **** yellow-colored crap powder????

Looks like "training snow" to me.

Bwaaahaaahaahaa.

Silly.


BTW, someone needs to learn how to shoot ski pics. That photo
looks like ****. And what's with the poles anyway?

The photo is 23 year old.


This following link is a skier in some *real* powder...and
he's definitely not flat-boarding:

http://ski.astropax.com/04-05/alta_11-28-04_006.htm

Notice the adjustable poles. We like adjustable poles.

Yup, that was one reason I gave up the poles. Remember 20 years ago, a
pair poles may cost less than 20 bucks? The adjustable poles cost $75
at that time, so I gave them up.

sting


-Astro

Bob Lee wrote:
tiandiren wrote:

Bob Lee wrote:
[...]
But since I'm thinking of it, using poles to set up and
flow from one turn to the next by getting yourself
positioned and moving into the transition (edge change)
for the next turn is a good technique.

Do you "pull" or "push" the poles, that is, downhill poling
or uphill poling, respectively?

You use the downhill pole to set up your turn.

Poles are useful for timing in your turns.

Timing, when to do it? at the beginning of the turn, middle
of the turn, or the end of the turn?

The pole plant is the *first* thing you do to begin a turn.

Ok, not a bad form.


A (proper) pole plant stores
energy and sets you up for short radius turns - it's crucial
to making the skis come around easily in difficult snow.

For rapid short radius turns, try mono-turn; that is, one tele turn
and
one parallel turn link together. Pole-plant remains optional.

Or not. Just do all tele turns or all parallel...with poles.

Not really, when you do all tele turns or all parallel turns you have
to "crossover" to alternate the lead ski, but not mono-turns, it just
flows through without pole-plant, and it (weight shifting) is so swift,
even you think of pole-plant you may not have time to do it.


They are also useful in
crud to help you maintain an aggressive downhill movement and
push up off your skis - remember to bring your outside hand
sharply forward, down the hill. THat will help make turns in
crud and powder more stable.

"Generally, in tele, it is the downhill ski that is weighed and
produces the turn, the "free heel" uphill ski controls the radius
of
the turn, hence controls the speed as well.

Oh jesus, where do you get this stuff?

Classic,

The so-called 'free
heel' uphill (or Inside) ski should almost always be parallel
to the front/outside/downhill ski.

Not with conventional "backcountry touring" skis. Mine were 210
Phoenix, which manufacture boasted with 1982 Mount Everest grand
circle, 1983 Denali ski traverse, 1983 first decent Nevado Ausengate,
and etc.


The general experience is that a weighed ski cannot be moved
(changing
direction) easily. So, to link the turns, the uphill ski (which has
less weight) is slide forward ahead of the downhill ski, and forms
an
asymmetric wedge with the downhill ski, then is weighed to produce
the
turn. Yes, point it (the uphill ski) at the fall line makes the
turning
easier and faster.

Oh my, wrong, wrong, wrong! The front/outside/downhill ski (let's
just
call it 'front' for tele, shall we?) directs the turn, not by
wedging,
but through the angulation of the knees, and the flex and the sidecut
of
the ski. In short, you point your knee where you want the ski to go.

The back ski should be weighted about the same as the front ski, but
on
the pinky toe, and steered in the same direction as the front ski.
At
the end of the turn, another pole plant, transition and weight shift,

then point the knees with the weight on the big toe (front ski) and
little toe (back ski).

Yes, I do all that, pole-plant remains optional.


Wedging like you are talking about is a survival turn - only
used when you can't pull off the turn any other way.

So, wedge is the foundation of tele; nevertheless, the wedge I was
talking about is "shape" or "configuration" of the skis, not the
downhill snowplow type. Yes, the weight is on the big ball of foot on
the front/downhill ski and on the little ball of foot on the
back/uphill ski, just like alpine parallel ski, but with a slightly
wedged for the balance of the platform.


However, the tricky part is that to weigh on a ski that is
pointed straight downhill generates much faster speed than
the skier can shift the weight over easily. The result is
that the skier would be behind the ski and chasing it.

*Not* if you use a proper pole plant and get out over the ski
in the first place. Done correctly, that sets you up to be
over your skis and able to complete the turn.

Forget about the pole-plant; without pole-plant you can actually "run"
down the hill.


So, some strong skiers would hop and switch
both skis and set them into the asymmetric wedge while both
skis are unweighed. This technique is very effective, but tiring.

Much easier to turn correctly.

That's for sure, that's the essence of skiing.


The uphill ski turning, in tele, I would do is instead of moving
the
uphill ski forward to form the wedge, I bring the downhill ski
backward
(like moonwalk?). At this point, the uphill ski is weighed on,
pointed
at the fall line, so the switch is more stable and the turning [as
well
as the turning sequence] remains fast this way."--my way--

Even a blind pig finds an acorn every now and then. This
'pulling back the front ski' is good technique.

Yup, a blind pig may have a better sense than a lot of guys with eyes
to see.


My point being, don't think that someone is a
poor skier because they don't ski in the trauma parks.

My point being, don't think someone is a poor skier because
they don't ski cruds.

Actually, I have other reasons for thinking you're a poor
skier - your pictures and what you write.

The great knowledge seeks for the truth, and the little knowledge
wrangles on semantics.

sting


Bob

wrote:
tiandiren wrote:
wrote:
tiandiren wrote:

The spirit and the skills of the skier is reflected on
the line he/she left behind.

Yeah, and many of the very best lines out there can only
be reached by utilizing poles or some another method of
getting uphill.

There's no "best" line, just go skiing and enjoy your
skiing, then look back at the physical line you left behind,
do you satisfy the line you draw?

Correct, but the most fun stuff is still practically always in
off-piste, in my opinion. It would be simply dumb to do big
off-piste without ways of going uphill.

I only go downhill nowadays.


What's the point of no poles? Having more "freedom" to
make funky postures with your hands?

"And above all, come with skiing without poles, pole-plant
is no longer needed. While skiing loses its signature
"hopping" beats, free-hand skiing transforms. With free
hands elegantly reflecting the balance of gravity, as well
as playful, flat-boarding becomes truly "free" form of
skiing."--"Flat-Boarding"--

In my line of thought form follows function. Doing poses with
hands would fall into the "unnecessary" category, I'd rather
ski efficiently and in a centered way, not scattering my arms
around so that they "reflect the balance of gravity".

Without "ski efficiently and in a centered way," you don't get the
"pose" like that.

I would
guess that when something unexpected happens under the ski,
the farther your arms arte from your center of gravity the
more likely you are to have trouble with balance
(as it takes time to center the arms).

Not really, the "bow" of the body has already balanced with the
gravity. All the fundamental skiing works are done by the legs, not
with the hands.


Also, pole-plants have all but disappeared from ski racing
anyway,

Yup, no poling turns are faster than poling turns.

nowadays people just let the end of the pole skim the
surface of snow in high speed turns so they know exactly where
the slope is. I like that.

Yup, you may like that, but it (skimming) is just an undesirable
distraction to many high-level competitors.

tiendiren

VtSkier wrote:
LePheaux wrote:
"tiandiren" wrote in message
oups.com...

Kurt Knisely wrote:

In article . com,

tiandiren

says...


"Generally, in tele, it is the downhill ski that is weighed
and produces the turn, the "free heel" uphill ski controls
the radius of the turn, hence controls the speed as well.

In powder?

Yes,
http://www.taomartialarts.com/ski/ski_p_tele3.jpg



That's not tele.
that's called traversing.

In the realm of ignorance, arrogance reigns.



I commented earlier that I didn't think the skier
was moving. In that case it's called "standing
still, looking down the hill".

Here's a new term for you, it is called "motion in stillness." Didn't
see the tip is already started to turn?

sting

tiandiren wrote:

In the realm of ignorance, arrogance reigns.


.... and you're just about the most arrogant, ignorant ass to post here
in quite some time.

Armin

tiandiren wrote:
wrote:

I would
guess that when something unexpected happens under the ski,
the farther your arms arte from your center of gravity the
more likely you are to have trouble with balance
(as it takes time to center the arms).

Not really, the "bow" of the body has already balanced with the
gravity. All the fundamental skiing works are done by the legs, not
with the hands.

So why put the hands in weird positions then? Are there any video clips
of this stuff in action on the web?

tiandiren wrote:
VtSkier wrote:

I commented earlier that I didn't think the skier
was moving. In that case it's called "standing
still, looking down the hill".


Here's a new term for you, it is called "motion in stillness." Didn't
see the tip is already started to turn?

sting

I think "stillness in motion" might be commendable.
Besides you are trying to suck me back in again.
I'll let others have at you for a while since they
are doing a much better job than I was with lots
fewer words.

zap

wrote:
tiandiren wrote:
wrote:

I would
guess that when something unexpected happens under the
ski,the farther your arms arte from your center of gravity
the more likely you are to have trouble with balance
(as it takes time to center the arms).

Not really, the "bow" of the body has already balanced with
the gravity. All the fundamental skiing works are done by
the legs, not with the hands.

So why put the hands in weird positions then?

That may have something to do with Tai-Chi and Tai-Chi-Chuan,
http://www.taomartials.com/tji/tji_p_tuibukuahu.jpg

Tai-Chi-Skiing is practiced not just a skiing but a martial art as
well. As a martial artist, you should be able to defend yourself and to
fight at any time and any place, yes, even on skis; so, the body has to
be dynamically balanced, and holding down the hands may stabilize the
skiing but does/can not serve such a function. Nevertheless, when no
hand movement is required, the hands are folded in the back or trailing
on the sides.

Are there any video clips
of this stuff in action on the web?

No, only some drawings from the sequenced photos,
http://www.taomartialarts.com/ski/ski_g_tele1.gif;
http://www.taomartialarts.com/ski/ski_g_tele2.gif;
http://www.taomartialarts.com/ski/ski_g_tele3.gif;
http://www.taomartialarts.com/ski/ski_g_tele4.gif;

tiendiren

VtSkier wrote:
tiandiren wrote:
VtSkier wrote:

I commented earlier that I didn't think the skier
was moving. In that case it's called "standing
still, looking down the hill".


Here's a new term for you, it is called "motion in
stillness." Didn't see the tip is already started to turn?

sting

I think "stillness in motion" might be commendable.

At the moment of Yin-Yang-He, harmonized Yin and Yang, they are the
same.

Besides you are trying to suck me back in again.

Not really, just throwing out a cheap shining thing to see if you bite.

I'll let others have at you for a while since they
are doing a much better job than I was with lots
fewer words.

They howl like a pack of coyotes running into a grizzly.

zap

sting