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Blood volume?



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 26th 07, 04:31 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
[email protected]
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Posts: 54
Default Blood volume?

Hi All,

I have a very serious set of varicose veins in my calf, and I have
recently started using a tight support stocking occasionaly. I have not
used it while cycling or skiing, untli today. Today I went sking (both
classic and freestyle) and I felt like I was unstoppable. It was a
strange feeling. I do not recall ever being so on top of my game while
skiing before. It was a strange feeling.

I estimate I normally have 3-4 deciliters (or more) of blood sitting
pooled in these veins. Normally the blood just sits there and fluids
accumulate in my leg in a grotesque swelling manner. With these support
hose, the pooling is virtually non-existant. Is it possible that this
"extra" 3-4 dl circulating somehow improved my oxygen transport such
that I felt like da man today?

Joseph

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  #2  
Old January 29th 07, 04:56 AM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Chris Cole
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Posts: 36
Default Blood volume?

wrote:
Hi All,

I have a very serious set of varicose veins in my calf, and I have
recently started using a tight support stocking occasionaly. I have not
used it while cycling or skiing, untli today. Today I went sking (both
classic and freestyle) and I felt like I was unstoppable. It was a
strange feeling. I do not recall ever being so on top of my game while
skiing before. It was a strange feeling.

I estimate I normally have 3-4 deciliters (or more) of blood sitting
pooled in these veins. Normally the blood just sits there and fluids
accumulate in my leg in a grotesque swelling manner. With these support
hose, the pooling is virtually non-existant. Is it possible that this
"extra" 3-4 dl circulating somehow improved my oxygen transport such
that I felt like da man today?

Joseph


Hi Joseph,

The extra oxygen-carrying capacity of the normally-pooled blood in your
legs would provide some improvement in your aerobic performance, but
it's difficult to say how large that effect would be.

The additional benefit of the stockings returning venous blood to your
heart more expeditiously is that the "used" blood, lower in pH, is moved
away from the tissues faster.

The reduction in venous congestion also means that, perhaps a little
counter-intuitively, despite your muscles being squeezed, the resistance
to incoming arteriolar blood is reduced and so your muscles are
better-perfused with fresh, oxygen-rich blood while you're wearing the
stockings.

"Skins" have become popular amongst many professional (and amateur)
sportspeople over the past few years, as they are beneficial even if you
don't have varicose veins or other peripheral oedema problems. Here in
Australia we see them used most prominently by a few of our national
cricket players. I'm pondering the merits of buying some for use in the
upcoming (for us) ski season, for the abovementioned reasons but also
because they provide a thermally active, wicking base layer of clothing. =)

Regards,
Chris

  #3  
Old January 29th 07, 01:30 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
[email protected]
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Posts: 37
Default Blood volume?



On Jan 29, 6:56 am, Chris Cole wrote:
wrote:
Hi All,


I have a very serious set of varicose veins in my calf, and I have
recently started using a tight support stocking occasionaly. I have not
used it while cycling or skiing, untli today. Today I went sking (both
classic and freestyle) and I felt like I was unstoppable. It was a
strange feeling. I do not recall ever being so on top of my game while
skiing before. It was a strange feeling.


I estimate I normally have 3-4 deciliters (or more) of blood sitting
pooled in these veins. Normally the blood just sits there and fluids
accumulate in my leg in a grotesque swelling manner. With these support
hose, the pooling is virtually non-existant. Is it possible that this
"extra" 3-4 dl circulating somehow improved my oxygen transport such
that I felt like da man today?


JosephHi Joseph,


The extra oxygen-carrying capacity of the normally-pooled blood in your
legs would provide some improvement in your aerobic performance, but
it's difficult to say how large that effect would be.

The additional benefit of the stockings returning venous blood to your
heart more expeditiously is that the "used" blood, lower in pH, is moved
away from the tissues faster.

The reduction in venous congestion also means that, perhaps a little
counter-intuitively, despite your muscles being squeezed, the resistance
to incoming arteriolar blood is reduced and so your muscles are
better-perfused with fresh, oxygen-rich blood while you're wearing the
stockings.

"Skins" have become popular amongst many professional (and amateur)
sportspeople over the past few years, as they are beneficial even if you
don't have varicose veins or other peripheral oedema problems. Here in
Australia we see them used most prominently by a few of our national
cricket players. I'm pondering the merits of buying some for use in the
upcoming (for us) ski season, for the abovementioned reasons but also
because they provide a thermally active, wicking base layer of clothing. =)

Regards,
Chris


Hi Chris,

That is quite interesting. I wonder how tight these "skins" are? The
socks I have (knee high) are available in thigh high versions as well.
The ones I have are rated as 15-20 mmHg. I don't know what those units
are, but I assume they are a measure of how hard they compress the
legs. They are quite sheer and I wear them under a thin wool sock
while skiing.

Perhaps the effect you suggest with incoming blood having an easier
time of things has some merit. I think it was while skating that I
noticed the greatest difference. Skating (at least the way I do it!)
uses much more calf muscles and this combined with my calves being on
the muscular side may have meant I had lots to gain by such
assistance.

Joseph

  #4  
Old January 30th 07, 01:57 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
jgs
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default Blood volume?

Joe,
I had a very successful operation to rid myself of veins like you
describe. Recovery time is nearly nothing, on your feet in hours,
running within a week. The guy that did my leg was no cowboy, really
took his time, mapped the whole venous system and FIXED my leg.
I would be happy to tell you about it. I pump allot of blood through
my leg - I'm training for my first ultra - only dream prior to the
operation.
/john

On Jan 26, 12:31 pm, wrote:
Hi All,

I have a very serious set of varicose veins in my calf, and I have
recently started using a tight support stocking occasionaly. I have not
used it while cycling or skiing, untli today. Today I went sking (both
classic and freestyle) and I felt like I was unstoppable. It was a
strange feeling. I do not recall ever being so on top of my game while
skiing before. It was a strange feeling.

I estimate I normally have 3-4 deciliters (or more) of blood sitting
pooled in these veins. Normally the blood just sits there and fluids
accumulate in my leg in a grotesque swelling manner. With these support
hose, the pooling is virtually non-existant. Is it possible that this
"extra" 3-4 dl circulating somehow improved my oxygen transport such
that I felt like da man today?

Joseph


  #5  
Old January 30th 07, 02:34 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 37
Default Blood volume?



On Jan 30, 3:57 pm, "jgs" wrote:
Joe,
I had a very successful operation to rid myself of veins like you
describe. Recovery time is nearly nothing, on your feet in hours,
running within a week. The guy that did my leg was no cowboy, really
took his time, mapped the whole venous system and FIXED my leg.
I would be happy to tell you about it. I pump allot of blood through
my leg - I'm training for my first ultra - only dream prior to the
operation.
/john


Hi John,

Thanks for the input. I have been on the waiting list for over a year
for just such an operation. I live in Norway, and I figure I should
get _something_ for my $8/gal gas, 25% sales tax, and huge income
tax! ;-)

That is good to know about the recovery time. That is something I have
not been able to get anyone to commit to. Obvioulsy it is rather
individual, but I assume the docs here are taking a conservative line
when they talk about recovery, as they have all sorts of folks to deal
with. But knowing a fit person such as yourself was running within a
week is very comforting.

I have been thinking about having the operation done on my own dime in
LA, combining with a visit to my family. But I wasn't sure about how
much I'd be out of commision, and how much of a burden it would be to
have me around for them. Sounds like it's not that big a deal.

Joseph


On Jan 26, 12:31 pm, wrote:

Hi All,


I have a very serious set of varicose veins in my calf, and I have
recently started using a tight support stocking occasionaly. I have not
used it while cycling or skiing, untli today. Today I went sking (both
classic and freestyle) and I felt like I was unstoppable. It was a
strange feeling. I do not recall ever being so on top of my game while
skiing before. It was a strange feeling.


I estimate I normally have 3-4 deciliters (or more) of blood sitting
pooled in these veins. Normally the blood just sits there and fluids
accumulate in my leg in a grotesque swelling manner. With these support
hose, the pooling is virtually non-existant. Is it possible that this
"extra" 3-4 dl circulating somehow improved my oxygen transport such
that I felt like da man today?


Joseph


  #6  
Old January 30th 07, 03:44 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
jgs
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default Blood volume?

Joe,
I was helped by - 'The Vein Institute of the North Shore, Dr. Tom
Dooley', north of Boston. I had, had two prior surgeries that were not
nearly as well thought out. The procedure I had done was a; greater
saphenous vein ligation. I planned mine to be done after ski season
and before the running, biking, hiking seasons. Down time was really
nothing and I when I got back to training I could hammer like never
before.
If you were going to go to LA, the North Shore guys might be able to
refer you to someone.
/john


On Jan 30, 10:34 am, "
wrote:
On Jan 30, 3:57 pm, "jgs" wrote:

Joe,
I had a very successful operation to rid myself of veins like you
describe. Recovery time is nearly nothing, on your feet in hours,
running within a week. The guy that did my leg was no cowboy, really
took his time, mapped the whole venous system and FIXED my leg.
I would be happy to tell you about it. I pump allot of blood through
my leg - I'm training for my first ultra - only dream prior to the
operation.
/johnHi John,


Thanks for the input. I have been on the waiting list for over a year
for just such an operation. I live in Norway, and I figure I should
get _something_ for my $8/gal gas, 25% sales tax, and huge income
tax! ;-)

That is good to know about the recovery time. That is something I have
not been able to get anyone to commit to. Obvioulsy it is rather
individual, but I assume the docs here are taking a conservative line
when they talk about recovery, as they have all sorts of folks to deal
with. But knowing a fit person such as yourself was running within a
week is very comforting.

I have been thinking about having the operation done on my own dime in
LA, combining with a visit to my family. But I wasn't sure about how
much I'd be out of commision, and how much of a burden it would be to
have me around for them. Sounds like it's not that big a deal.

Joseph

On Jan 26, 12:31 pm, wrote:


Hi All,


I have a very serious set of varicose veins in my calf, and I have
recently started using a tight support stocking occasionaly. I have not
used it while cycling or skiing, untli today. Today I went sking (both
classic and freestyle) and I felt like I was unstoppable. It was a
strange feeling. I do not recall ever being so on top of my game while
skiing before. It was a strange feeling.


I estimate I normally have 3-4 deciliters (or more) of blood sitting
pooled in these veins. Normally the blood just sits there and fluids
accumulate in my leg in a grotesque swelling manner. With these support
hose, the pooling is virtually non-existant. Is it possible that this
"extra" 3-4 dl circulating somehow improved my oxygen transport such
that I felt like da man today?


Joseph


  #7  
Old January 30th 07, 04:28 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 37
Default Blood volume?



On Jan 30, 5:44 pm, "jgs" wrote:
Joe,
I was helped by - 'The Vein Institute of the North Shore, Dr. Tom
Dooley', north of Boston. I had, had two prior surgeries that were not
nearly as well thought out. The procedure I had done was a; greater
saphenous vein ligation. I planned mine to be done after ski season
and before the running, biking, hiking seasons. Down time was really
nothing and I when I got back to training I could hammer like never
before.
If you were going to go to LA, the North Shore guys might be able to
refer you to someone.
/john


My mothe rlives in Worcester, so maybe I could just visit her and go
to that place.

Had bad were yours?

Joseph

  #8  
Old February 1st 07, 01:54 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Chris Cole
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 36
Default Blood volume?


Hi Chris,

That is quite interesting. I wonder how tight these "skins" are? The
socks I have (knee high) are available in thigh high versions as well.
The ones I have are rated as 15-20 mmHg. I don't know what those units
are, but I assume they are a measure of how hard they compress the
legs. They are quite sheer and I wear them under a thin wool sock
while skiing.


Hi Joseph,

I have yet to try "skins" on, so I can't really comment, but fiddling
with them in the store, they feel fairly tight, certainly on the same
order of magnitude as the TEDS type stockings you're describing (which
do indeed come in knee-high and thigh-high versions).

The units are millimetres of mercury, a measure of pressure. The SI unit
is the Pascal, but certain pressures (blood pressure, etc.) are still
expressed in equivalent mm of mercury (Hg) hence the mmHg abbreviation.
Sometimes you'll also see cmH2O (centimetres of water) used.

Normal central venous pressure is bugger-all, but the venous pressure in
your legs can be markedly higher, due to the pressure of the column of
blood above it (gravity's a bitch). Normally the system of valves in
your veins alleviates this, by preventing the weight of the blood above
the valve from pressing down on the blood below the valve, and adding to
the cumulative pressure below.

In varicose veins, some of these valves no longer function correctly,
and in particular, the valves of the so-called perforating veins (the
ones that link the big, deep veins in your calf, to the superficial ones
you can see and feel) are faulty. This leads to blood from the large
deep (and much higher pressure) veins "leaking" backwards into the
smaller, weaker/less well supported superficial veins, adding
dramatically to the pressure in them and leading to further valve
failure in those superficial veins.... hey presto... varicose veins.

Unfortunately it's something of a positive feedback problem.

Surgery, in appropriately skilled hands, can make dramatic improvements
in both appearance and performance for someone in your situation, but
make sure you ask lots of questions and possibly even look at
before/after photos of patients if the surgeon has them available.

Kind regards,
Chris Cole
  #9  
Old February 4th 07, 05:27 PM
Ed Miller Ed Miller is offline
Junior Member
 
First recorded activity by SkiBanter: Feb 2007
Location: Hailey, Idaho
Posts: 18
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hi All,

I have a very serious set of varicose veins in my calf, and I have
recently started using a tight support stocking occasionaly. I have not
used it while cycling or skiing, untli today. Today I went sking (both
classic and freestyle) and I felt like I was unstoppable. It was a
strange feeling. I do not recall ever being so on top of my game while
skiing before. It was a strange feeling.

I estimate I normally have 3-4 deciliters (or more) of blood sitting
pooled in these veins. Normally the blood just sits there and fluids
accumulate in my leg in a grotesque swelling manner. With these support
hose, the pooling is virtually non-existant. Is it possible that this
"extra" 3-4 dl circulating somehow improved my oxygen transport such
that I felt like da man today?

Joseph
Support stockings can help with veinous pooling in those with varicosities and prevent the achy feeling one gets from standing a long time. As was previously alluded to, these patients are also subject to poorer wound healing because the pooled blood increases tissue pressures in leg, thus preventing newer oxygenated blood from getting in. As a physician I sometimes see lower leg infections, cellulitis, ulcers, and skin discoloration as a result. Too much veinous pooling can also lead to decreased sensation in the legs, thus interferring with fine motor function and coordination. Some experts think that regularly wearing the support stockings can prevent the further progression or enlargment of the varicosities that usually occurs. An operation, in good hands, is probably your best bet, assuming you are a good operative candidate. In the meantime wear the stockings! Making sure they fit right and don't constrict in any one area.
However, independent of the veinous issues, there is an additional benefit to a tight fitting stocking or tights (or "skins") as studies have shown that the proprioceptive nerves in the legs, especially around the knees and ankles, can function more efficiently with an elastic wrap that hugs the surrounding tissues. I don't know the mechanism for this but remember reading this in the medical literature. This could lead to an improved sense of balance and leg/foot placement, thus improving skiing technique.

Ed
  #10  
Old February 4th 07, 09:24 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Gary Jacobson
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Posts: 41
Default Improving longer distance?


"Ed Miller" wrote in message
...

I do fairly well in shorter races but when I get much over an hour I
fatigue, (esp legs) and my technique suffers, and some of the people I
worked so hard to pass return the favor. Any general suggestions for
improving more in longer races?
background: fiftyish master skier, 6 years racing, regular skier for
10, gradual SLOW improvement, weak right leg from old ACL tear and
reconstruction (done in the days before they had the operation fully
worked out) Have always had good general strength but never much of an
endurance guy prior to last 10 years.
Thanks


Can't do much this year except to ski at low heart rates for 2 to 3 times
the length of you race distance. Don't expect it to help, and it may even
hurt your racing this year.

Off season is when you build endurance. It's about base, and you seem to be
lacking in that area. You probably need to do long work outs 2 x week, and
make them easy so that you don't burn out.
Upper body endurance is important, so try to paddle or double pole on roller
ski in the off season. Other wise walk up hill with poles, ride a bike,
skate or do anything you like to do. As winter comes grows closer become
more ski specific.

With out knowing more specifics, like you max and resting HR, your goals,
and the distance you plan to excel at, it's tough to make specific
recommendations beyond reading or getting a coach.

BTW I just picked up Sharkey and Gaskill's "Fitness and Health" which is a
newly titled and improved version of a book by Sharkey published years ago.
It would be a good place for you to start.
Anything by these guys who are skiers would be good for you. Also see what
Lee Borowski has written- it's ski specific.

You'll likely have questions about LSD vs. intensity for building
endurance. If you find out the answer, let us know it.

Gary Jacobson
Rosendale, NY



 




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