Any luck using kick wax at freezing with damp freas snow?

This past weekend nothing was working at freezing with fresh damp snow
for kick. Swix VR55 didn't work. Finally went with Swix VR 70. This
was a disaster! I've had luck with Start Tar Zero, but this would
freeze up eventually as well. I realize there is the choice of making
"hairies, or going waxless. Thought perhaps someone had luck with
other kick waxes like Rode Violets.

What was underneath the new wet snow? Corn snow? Ice? Wet earth?
Wonder if Start Black Magic would have done the trick.
Did you have regular paraffin kick wax under the Start Tar?

Gary Jacobson
Rosendale, NY

"Douglas Diehl" wrote in message
om...
This past weekend nothing was working at freezing with fresh damp snow
for kick. Swix VR55 didn't work. Finally went with Swix VR 70. This
was a disaster! I've had luck with Start Tar Zero, but this would
freeze up eventually as well. I realize there is the choice of making
"hairies, or going waxless. Thought perhaps someone had luck with
other kick waxes like Rode Violets.

I hate waxing for those conditions too. Hairies may be your best bet.

The Start tar waxes will often work as well, but they sometimes don't last
as long.

Also give Start flouro yellow a try. It sometimes works fairly well when
nothing else will.

Scott Elliot
http://www3.telus.net/selliot/

"Douglas Diehl" wrote in message
om...
This past weekend nothing was working at freezing with fresh damp snow
for kick. Swix VR55 didn't work. Finally went with Swix VR 70. This
was a disaster! I've had luck with Start Tar Zero, but this would
freeze up eventually as well. I realize there is the choice of making
"hairies, or going waxless. Thought perhaps someone had luck with
other kick waxes like Rode Violets.

Hi Doug - I saw you skiing around up at Bolton, though I wouldn't have known
it was you unless Mike Wynn had pointed you out. Sorry the wax didn't work
out well for you.

I think one of the errors that we all make in these very difficult
conditions is that we tend to head straight for the newest, greatest,
fanciest wax. Yesterday Swix special red was as close to perfection as
anything out there. The other error we all make on a day like yesterday is
going for perfect kick. The best bet is to avoid icing and be tough.

A brief synopsis of conditions for those who weren't in attendence:
Temps at 0.3C at 6:45 AM with fluffy new snow in the tracks and light snow
in the air. My first test I took out two waxes that have very similar ranges
in my experience. One iced and the other never kicked. Uh-oh. Tested hairies
on Kris Freeman's factory hairy skis. They iced but seemed very promising
with some hand modification. Swix special red was acceptable but not
perfect. OK kick, no icing.

By 9:00the temp had dipped below freezing (-0.6) and traffic on the tracks
had produced a lot of glaze. But it also started snowing very hard. The cold
front had finally arrived. Hairies started icing badly. Swix special red was
slick in the glaze, but good elsewhere.

9:30, Kris ruled out Hairies and wanted to improve the special red. We
tested two covers: VR60 and XF60. The VR60 stayed freer during his test. But
I don't like its tendency to migrate on the ski, so we kept a special red
base. By now it was getting on for 10:00.

Waxed up race skis with special red/VR60. The last modification was to go
XF50 for speed.

Our mistake - we never tested straight special red against the VR60 top
layer.

First lap the lower 5K of the course was totall unskied, so Kris plowed two
to three inches of snow and had to be careful to avoid icing. Further back
in the pack the tracks were starting to glaze pretty quickly. But it's worth
noting that conditions varied dramatically around the course.

Second lap Kris had "perfect" skis. Then, during the third lap the second
wave of cold hit and it started snowing again, this time quite a bit dryer.
At this point most everybody started icing. Except for the Burke Mountain
Academy kids who were on the new Rossi waxless skis and had really good skis
all day. Every other pair of waxless skis out there seemed to be about
average for waxless skis - you could hear them coming and they were
certainly slow at times. Those new Rossis looked awesome. Must have been
very well fit to the kids as well. Hunter Karnedy ended up third, I think -
not bad for a junior against a pretty good field.

Kris iced for the last three K, but wouldn't have without the VR60. Of
course, at that point he was in the lead by 6 minutes or so. I waxed two J2
boys for the 30K with the same combo as Kris. One had awesome skis all day,
the other iced early and ran most of the race. Skis were important too.

By the end of the day VR55 was pretty good. But I think Special Red (which
also has a hardness factor of 55 on the Swix scale but tends to run a little
warmer) was better. No ice and awesome kick.

Over the course of the race special red would have been really good. Kris
was happy but we agreed that he'd have been better off with no VR60 in the
mix. Other people suffered a lot more. Brayton Osgood had bad skis (thanks
to me). And we put straight VR60 on Amy's skis right before the start
because it was so glazy and it had stayed free in our tests. Amy iced the
whole day, with the exception of about 2K in the middle when her skis were
good.

In all, it wasn't the most difficult waxing day I've seen, but it was surely
hectic. Lots of fun.

Here's a brief summary of my experience with waxes in those really difficult
border-line conditions:
You never know what's going to work. So a "stand-by" doesn't cut it. Crystal
shape and moisture content can vary greatly and they really determine the
balance of hardness and additive that's appropriate.

The Swix VRs (60 and 70) haven't been too good in new snow. But when it's a
bit more sugary their range is impressive. Definitely prone to icing in new
snow.

Special Red remains a favorite. It's very stable and reisists icing well. It
may be my favorite Swix wax.

Ski-Go special yellow can be really amazing on the warm end of the scale -
especially when the sun comes out. But I didn't test it at Bolton because we
used it up on the classic day at JOs. Got to get more of that from Rodney.

I've never had astoundingly good success with the Rode line in these
conditions, but the Fast (fluorinated) special red can be an asset.

Toko yellow is worth testing.

The old Swix XF waxes can haul your butt out of the fire pretty effectively.
I've had better luck with the 50 and 70 than I have with the 60. They're
very hard to put on (especially the 60and 70) and they're pretty much only
appropriate as a top layer. But they can be amazing.

I haven't used a lot of the Start Tar waxes, and I'm sure there are other
exotic waxes out there that I'm not familiar with. But be careful of claims
that ANY wax will allways work well in those conditions.

Final trick (definitely not an option yesterday). Have a pair of soft skis
with a paper thin coat of Rode Special Rossa klister with no cover. If the
sun is out this will often be really good long before the hard waxes stop
working. But it can get you ahead of the curve in a situation where things
are headed to klister one way or another. Rex red is also good - maybe even
a little faster than the special rossa in new snow.

Zach



"Douglas Diehl" wrote in message
om...
This past weekend nothing was working at freezing with fresh damp snow
for kick. Swix VR55 didn't work. Finally went with Swix VR 70. This
was a disaster! I've had luck with Start Tar Zero, but this would
freeze up eventually as well. I realize there is the choice of making
"hairies, or going waxless. Thought perhaps someone had luck with
other kick waxes like Rode Violets.

In article , Zachary Caldwell wrote:
Tested hairies on Kris Freeman's factory hairy skis. They iced but
seemed very promising with some hand modification.

Hey Zach,

Thanks for lots of great information. We were doing some ski-touring
up in the Boundary Waters a few days early last week. I was using
hairies most of the time as the temps were cycling above/below
freezing with fresh snow still on the ground. I had great success for
two days, then on the third day had a terrible time with
icing/clumping. Cool overnight temps (25F), fresh snow early morning,
then warming (35-40F) during the day. I left the hairies bare. Is
there any cover that can be put on the hairies to limit the icing
problems? I considered margarine at the time, but figure there might
be something better!

Cheers,
Brian

I am SO glad I went home Saturday afternoon. The skating on Saturday
was wonderful and I had a good race (Rossi F3, Zach's Z40 grind, Toko
HF Red covered with Helx Warm).

--- Zachary Caldwell wrote:

Toko yellow is worth testing.

A secret Toko tip for "hairy" conditions. Mix in some silver klister
with the Yellow stick. Put a few dabs of silver on the ski. Then rub
on yellow stick mixing it into the silver klister. Smooth out with
thumb and go ski. I tried it on fresh powder with the temp in upper
30s last week - great kick and no icing.

I'll check with the other Toko Tech guys and see what they used for wax
at Bolton. Sounds like a tough day.

Rob Bradlee
Toko Tech Team



=====
Rob Bradlee
Java, C++, Perl, XML, OOAD, Linux, and Unix Training

On 22 Mar 2004, at 10:15, Zachary Caldwell wrote:

A brief synopsis of conditions for those who weren't in attendence:
Temps at 0.3C at 6:45 AM with fluffy new snow in the tracks and light
snow in the air.

By 9:00the temp had dipped below freezing (-0.6) and traffic on the
tracks had produced a lot of glaze. But it also started snowing very
hard. The cold front had finally arrived.

In similar conditions yesterday at Osceola, in the Tug Hill region of
NY, my old Swix VF 50 over VF 40 over a few dabs of Toko silver
stick (thanks, Rob) worked well.


Eddie Luban

Zach, you just keep paying us for those ads, doncha? : ) Well, I for one
appreciate it! The wax-fever shines thru and it's great that you share it.

Nowax skis sound like they might be just dandy for citizen racers in these
tricky conditions. Aren't they getting lots better lately? Nowaxes won the last
goofy-condition classic race I did. Seems like they might be smart back-ups.

About hairies: are they easy to do and to restore from? I'm guessing you just
dry kickzone with cleaner then sand tip to tail a few times? Then metal scrape
to restore? The icing sounds annoying. Real nowaxes don't do that, right?

Nice to read about Rossi doing good work with the nowaxes.

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publisher of do-it-yourself culture ... bikes, skis, boats & more! ...
... offering Vordenberg's XC ski tales in "Momentum"! ...
... "The Recumbent Bicycle": the only book about these bikes! ...
... Rudloe's "Potluck": true-life story of workingclass smuggling! ...
... with radical novels coming up via LiteraryRevolution.com! ...
... music! ... articles! ... travel forums! ... WOW! 800-763-6923

Zach,
Thanks for giving a break down on the kick wax choices you were
working with in Bolton, VT for Kris's skiis. It's a good thing I'm
using a key board and not telling you in person. My vocal chords are
shot from cursing the whole way back to Bolton Landing, NY after the
race.

"Zachary Caldwell" wrote in message ...
Hi Doug - I saw you skiing around up at Bolton, though I wouldn't have known
it was you unless Mike Wynn had pointed you out. Sorry the wax didn't work
out well for you.

I think one of the errors that we all make in these very difficult
conditions is that we tend to head straight for the newest, greatest,
fanciest wax. Yesterday Swix special red was as close to perfection as
anything out there. The other error we all make on a day like yesterday is
going for perfect kick. The best bet is to avoid icing and be tough.

A brief synopsis of conditions for those who weren't in attendence:
Temps at 0.3C at 6:45 AM with fluffy new snow in the tracks and light snow
in the air. My first test I took out two waxes that have very similar ranges
in my experience. One iced and the other never kicked. Uh-oh. Tested hairies
on Kris Freeman's factory hairy skis. They iced but seemed very promising
with some hand modification. Swix special red was acceptable but not
perfect. OK kick, no icing.

By 9:00the temp had dipped below freezing (-0.6) and traffic on the tracks
had produced a lot of glaze. But it also started snowing very hard. The cold
front had finally arrived. Hairies started icing badly. Swix special red was
slick in the glaze, but good elsewhere.

9:30, Kris ruled out Hairies and wanted to improve the special red. We
tested two covers: VR60 and XF60. The VR60 stayed freer during his test. But
I don't like its tendency to migrate on the ski, so we kept a special red
base. By now it was getting on for 10:00.

Waxed up race skis with special red/VR60. The last modification was to go
XF50 for speed.

Our mistake - we never tested straight special red against the VR60 top
layer.

First lap the lower 5K of the course was totall unskied, so Kris plowed two
to three inches of snow and had to be careful to avoid icing. Further back
in the pack the tracks were starting to glaze pretty quickly. But it's worth
noting that conditions varied dramatically around the course.

Second lap Kris had "perfect" skis. Then, during the third lap the second
wave of cold hit and it started snowing again, this time quite a bit dryer.
At this point most everybody started icing. Except for the Burke Mountain
Academy kids who were on the new Rossi waxless skis and had really good skis
all day. Every other pair of waxless skis out there seemed to be about
average for waxless skis - you could hear them coming and they were
certainly slow at times. Those new Rossis looked awesome. Must have been
very well fit to the kids as well. Hunter Karnedy ended up third, I think -
not bad for a junior against a pretty good field.

Kris iced for the last three K, but wouldn't have without the VR60. Of
course, at that point he was in the lead by 6 minutes or so. I waxed two J2
boys for the 30K with the same combo as Kris. One had awesome skis all day,
the other iced early and ran most of the race. Skis were important too.

By the end of the day VR55 was pretty good. But I think Special Red (which
also has a hardness factor of 55 on the Swix scale but tends to run a little
warmer) was better. No ice and awesome kick.

Over the course of the race special red would have been really good. Kris
was happy but we agreed that he'd have been better off with no VR60 in the
mix. Other people suffered a lot more. Brayton Osgood had bad skis (thanks
to me). And we put straight VR60 on Amy's skis right before the start
because it was so glazy and it had stayed free in our tests. Amy iced the
whole day, with the exception of about 2K in the middle when her skis were
good.

In all, it wasn't the most difficult waxing day I've seen, but it was surely
hectic. Lots of fun.

Here's a brief summary of my experience with waxes in those really difficult
border-line conditions:
You never know what's going to work. So a "stand-by" doesn't cut it. Crystal
shape and moisture content can vary greatly and they really determine the
balance of hardness and additive that's appropriate.

The Swix VRs (60 and 70) haven't been too good in new snow. But when it's a
bit more sugary their range is impressive. Definitely prone to icing in new
snow.

Special Red remains a favorite. It's very stable and reisists icing well. It
may be my favorite Swix wax.

Ski-Go special yellow can be really amazing on the warm end of the scale -
especially when the sun comes out. But I didn't test it at Bolton because we
used it up on the classic day at JOs. Got to get more of that from Rodney.

I've never had astoundingly good success with the Rode line in these
conditions, but the Fast (fluorinated) special red can be an asset.

Toko yellow is worth testing.

The old Swix XF waxes can haul your butt out of the fire pretty effectively.
I've had better luck with the 50 and 70 than I have with the 60. They're
very hard to put on (especially the 60and 70) and they're pretty much only
appropriate as a top layer. But they can be amazing.

I haven't used a lot of the Start Tar waxes, and I'm sure there are other
exotic waxes out there that I'm not familiar with. But be careful of claims
that ANY wax will allways work well in those conditions.

Final trick (definitely not an option yesterday). Have a pair of soft skis
with a paper thin coat of Rode Special Rossa klister with no cover. If the
sun is out this will often be really good long before the hard waxes stop
working. But it can get you ahead of the curve in a situation where things
are headed to klister one way or another. Rex red is also good - maybe even
a little faster than the special rossa in new snow.

Zach



"Douglas Diehl" wrote in message
om...
This past weekend nothing was working at freezing with fresh damp snow
for kick. Swix VR55 didn't work. Finally went with Swix VR 70. This
was a disaster! I've had luck with Start Tar Zero, but this would
freeze up eventually as well. I realize there is the choice of making
"hairies, or going waxless. Thought perhaps someone had luck with
other kick waxes like Rode Violets.

Zach,
Have you played with Rex Power Grip yet? It's tricky in new snow, but
the expensive Rex Hydrex spray does work well to ward off icing.

Gene

Zachary Caldwell wrote:

Hi Doug - I saw you skiing around up at Bolton, though I wouldn't have known
it was you unless Mike Wynn had pointed you out. Sorry the wax didn't work
out well for you.

I think one of the errors that we all make in these very difficult
conditions is that we tend to head straight for the newest, greatest,
fanciest wax. Yesterday Swix special red was as close to perfection as
anything out there. The other error we all make on a day like yesterday is
going for perfect kick. The best bet is to avoid icing and be tough.