Rollerskier in Fairbanks ticketed

I have used the V-2 brake and find it useful, though I understand that it
could be dangerous. For repeats up and down a known hill, it's great. I like
to assume something like a telemark turn position. Jenex, I don't think has
anymore of them, but some mail order shops still do.

Gary Jacobson
Rosendale, NY

"Karhu Germina" wrote in message
om...
Yes--the braking systems I've seen were all way more dangerous than
than helpful. (Besides the pull-cord one, didn't someone market a
brake that was activated by crouching down? Yeah, that's safe . and if
you're classical skiing and get a particularly deep leg compression it
stands to reason everything would come to an abrupt halt.) All I'm
saying is that it seems like it might be in the manufacturer's best
interest to develop something that actually works.

In the meantime, speed reducers on big hills. Or, uh, maybe walking
when you think things might be sketchy.

kgermina

(Mitch Collinsworth) wrote in message
mr.cornell.edu...
On Fri, 10 Oct 2003, Karhu Germina (or whoever this really is) wrote:

How V2/Pro-Ski/et al. can sell
these things without stock, reliable braking systems is beyond my
grasp, as is how they haven't been sued out of existence by one
litigious ******* who broke his wrist after hitting a patch of gravel.

Huh. I suppose you have a point, but there is another view on this,
too. Around the time V2 first started offering speed reducers and
those cord-pull brake things (do they still offer those?), I spoke
to Len about them and he specifically recommended NOT getting the
brake. Again this was years ago, but he said it's too easy to pull
the brake cable too hard, stop the wheel, and find yourself flying
forward with the ski no longer beneath you...

-Mitch

How V2/Pro-Ski/et al. can sell
these things without stock, reliable braking systems is beyond my
grasp, as is how they haven't been sued out of existence by one
litigious ******* who broke his wrist after hitting a patch of gravel.


Well, they haven't been sued b/c the manual to any rollerski states
that by using it you accept that you won't sue.

As for the brakes, apparently there's no trivial way of designing
those. And even if the breaks existed, before allplying them you would
have to lean back to compensate for inertia... Leaning back a bit
earlier than appying the breaks will result in a Bjorn Daehie kind of
injury, leaning back a bit late will cause a face plant. I guess the
only way to use the breaks safely would be to "sit down" and then
apply them, but that's exactly what you have to do anyway when you
apply speed reducers a'la v2 Aeros. So... I am happy with my speed
reducers, and if cops agree that they can be considered breaks -
great!

Gary Jacobson wrote:
I have used the V-2 brake and find it useful, though I understand that it
could be dangerous. For repeats up and down a known hill, it's great. I like
to assume something like a telemark turn position. Jenex, I don't think has
anymore of them, but some mail order shops still do.


I have the last two from a local ski shop. I had been thinking of
modifying them for the marve's ( I saw someone a few years in a 50K club
outing with brakes modified thusly) Anyone really wants them can drop
me a line . . .

Jim

I have a neat Jenex hybrid that they made for me. Aero front wheel with aero
150 speed reducer, and 920 rear wheel.
Bindings need to be mounted forward tohelp control the ski up front. Balance
a lot like snow classic skiing. More so than 900 series, I'd say. ANd speed
reducers really are great for long downhills and repeats. In fact I now use
these for repeat hill intervals over 920 with speed reducers and brake.

But quite honestly I haven't been roller skiing much. Glued to my road bike
it seems.

Gary Jacobson
Rosendale, NY


"Jim Farrell" wrote in message
...
Gary Jacobson wrote:
I have used the V-2 brake and find it useful, though I understand that
it
could be dangerous. For repeats up and down a known hill, it's great. I
like
to assume something like a telemark turn position. Jenex, I don't think
has
anymore of them, but some mail order shops still do.


I have the last two from a local ski shop. I had been thinking of
modifying them for the marve's ( I saw someone a few years in a 50K club
outing with brakes modified thusly) Anyone really wants them can drop
me a line . . .

Jim

Well, they haven't been sued b/c the manual to any rollerski states
that by using it you accept that you won't sue.

That's true enough. However, in the court of law, at least in the US,
there's no such thing as "fair warning". I'd still have trouble
sleeping if I was building those contraptions.

As for the brakes, apparently there's no trivial way of designing
those.

I'm no engineer, but I have to think there's got to be a way of making
them better. I, as well as maybe 99.8 percent of this group, learned
to ride a bike and safely slow down and/or stop. There's no reason why
some Thomas Edison of rollerskiing can't come up with a similar
concept. The only problem I can foresee is marketing, in that there
are too many "I'm a badass who doesn't need to stop" people around.

kgermina

PS That last statement may, and perhaps should, spawn a new line. In
the end, I think that the main reason that safety within rollerskiing
is still an issue--that is to say, the market has no strong reason to
invest in developing safer products--is that way too many people who
get on the pavement assume they're "athletes" who know what they're
doing and are invincible.

[ ]
kgermina

[ ] In the end, I think that the main reason that safety within rollerskiing
is still an issue--that is to say, the market has no strong reason to
invest in developing safer products--is that way too many people who
get on the pavement assume they're "athletes" who know what they're
doing and are invincible.

Very good point!

It's crazy that RS's can't easily brake. I suspect it DOES hurt the
market. And we think it's weird that the new Nordic Walking distances
itself from XC ski? The ski culture perhaps doesn't play by sane rules
in some ways and so LOSES out.

What % of the fitness population is "invincible moron athlete"? Why
limit a product to such a tiny group?

Reminds me a little of the recumbent/HPV cultu every builder is out
for himself. They cooperate informally, even publicly within the
culture, but they haven't joined together for market impact yet!
They're little but if they joined together they could run one nice
color ad in every bike magazine every month saying "Try a recumbent
for fun, health and a smile on your face!" All boats would rise. But
they refuse to do the obvious.

A speedy skate without brakes? What, are they nuts?

MILLIONS out there LOVE doing new fitness things every year. If RS's
made *common sense* they'd sell to nonsnowstate people as very
sensible all-body training systems. Heck, I hardly need snow myself. I
prefer RS to inlining coz you add the upperbody: smart! Get far more
fitness! But what non-nuts-athlete would do it? --The things HAVE NO
BRAKES!

We in the Team NSR are finding quite a few new people interested in
XC. But we're mainly a dryland club. We have a PARADISE to train in:
Kensington Park. (Central, near Detroit.) I wouldn't be surprised if
we became a KP team, basically. These new people are beginners who
like fresh air and fitness near home, for the most part. They might
buy RS's even if they aren't going to XC ski on snow very much! They
probably want to know: What does it cost to get set up? (What's the
base price anyway: $500? A bit steep!) But $ is no prob to many. RS is
a great allbody fitness fun thing. But NO BRAKES? I suspect we lose
access to lots of more normal people as a result.

--JP

Jeff,

I think the market is ripe for a wireless servo-valve actuated pnuematic
brake. Just think, use a tiny pump charged from a viscous coupled
compressor on the front wheel to charge an accumulator, which powers a
servo actuated brake on the rear wheel. The servo could either be
actuated by a pneumatic or electric switch on your strong pole, coupled
by bluetooth, or possibly use the implantable system like the monkeys
playing video games (referenced in Wired this week).
You could probably find most of the pieces from some of Shimano's
downhill bike shifting systems. The whole thing shouldn't weigh more
than a couple of pounds:-)

Actually, I'm not ridiculing Jeff, but it's hard to come up with a
bombproof braking system that people will install and use. I think most
rollerskiers are of about the same athletic ability as 5-wheel skaters -
and share some of the same reluctance/distain/machisim(a|o) for hanging
a brake off the back of their skates.
I've got the ATRA speed reducers on my Aero125s, and can enable them
while moving at moderate speeds. They aren't brakes, but combined with
a V stop, I can safely navigate most situations. Learning how to run
off the edge of the trail/shoulder without crashing is also good, and
when all else fails, learn how to bail out.
Jeff Potter wrote:
[ ]

kgermina

[ ] In the end, I think that the main reason that safety within rollerskiing
is still an issue--that is to say, the market has no strong reason to
invest in developing safer products--is that way too many people who
get on the pavement assume they're "athletes" who know what they're
doing and are invincible.


Very good point!

It's crazy that RS's can't easily brake. I suspect it DOES hurt the
market. And we think it's weird that the new Nordic Walking distances
itself from XC ski? The ski culture perhaps doesn't play by sane rules
in some ways and so LOSES out.

What % of the fitness population is "invincible moron athlete"? Why
limit a product to such a tiny group?

Reminds me a little of the recumbent/HPV cultu every builder is out
for himself. They cooperate informally, even publicly within the
culture, but they haven't joined together for market impact yet!
They're little but if they joined together they could run one nice
color ad in every bike magazine every month saying "Try a recumbent
for fun, health and a smile on your face!" All boats would rise. But
they refuse to do the obvious.

A speedy skate without brakes? What, are they nuts?

MILLIONS out there LOVE doing new fitness things every year. If RS's
made *common sense* they'd sell to nonsnowstate people as very
sensible all-body training systems. Heck, I hardly need snow myself. I
prefer RS to inlining coz you add the upperbody: smart! Get far more
fitness! But what non-nuts-athlete would do it? --The things HAVE NO
BRAKES!

We in the Team NSR are finding quite a few new people interested in
XC. But we're mainly a dryland club. We have a PARADISE to train in:
Kensington Park. (Central, near Detroit.) I wouldn't be surprised if
we became a KP team, basically. These new people are beginners who
like fresh air and fitness near home, for the most part. They might
buy RS's even if they aren't going to XC ski on snow very much! They
probably want to know: What does it cost to get set up? (What's the
base price anyway: $500? A bit steep!) But $ is no prob to many. RS is
a great allbody fitness fun thing. But NO BRAKES? I suspect we lose
access to lots of more normal people as a result.

--JP

"Try a recumbent
for fun, health and a smile on your face!" All boats would rise.

All boats that are filled with aging 50-somethings with white hair and beards
and a pot belly and glasses. And the bike helmet that has the rearview mirror
attached. 90% of the people I see on a recumbent fit this description.

Sorry, I can't help it. I think the things are goofy and I can't stop myself
from saying it.

And you wouldn't be allowed to set the world hour record on one. Against the
rules.


Eric "Shmo" Chandler
Duluth, MN

Marsh Jones wrote:

[ ] I think most
rollerskiers are of about the same athletic ability as 5-wheel skaters -

What's our guess: Are rollerskis 3X as hard to stop as 5wheels and offer 3X less
handling potential?

I think we're worse off than the 5wheelers.

I don't think the current micro RS market will find users ADDING brakes to their
skis. I think any future LARGE market RS will come WITH brakes. See the diff? : )

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publisher of outdoor/indoor do-it-yourself culture...
...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies...
...rare books on ski, bike, boat culture, plus a Gulf Coast thriller
about smalltown smuggling ... more radical novels coming up!
...original downloadable music ... and articles galore!
plus national "Off the Beaten Path" travel forums! HOLY SMOKES!

"Eric W. Chandler" wrote:

"Try a recumbent
for fun, health and a smile on your face!" All boats would rise.

All boats that are filled with aging 50-somethings with white hair and beards
and a pot belly and glasses. And the bike helmet that has the rearview mirror
attached. 90% of the people I see on a recumbent fit this description.

I'll take the bait! ...And try to do a little PR here...

There are more and more younger riders using faster and faster 'bents.

Most century cyclists use a mirror.

Both of these are populations FAR huger than the USCF population and far more
affluent...and interesting in terms of culture. If you market to the USCF you're
marketing to ONE kind of person. Sigh. What fun is that?

The new lowracer style of 'bents probably has a different demographic appeal,
with several companies now focusing on them.

The two fastest riders in our local regular bike club are in their 40's and ride
unfaired lowracers.

Sorry, I can't help it. I think the things are goofy and I can't stop myself
from saying it.

50 yr olds like goofy stuff? And Lear Jets, too? They're probably the agegroup
with the leaders of most significant activities worldwide and probably have 10X
the disposable cash as other groups and are probably also at the peak of their
lifetime career achievement and talent curves. Not too shabby of a demographic
to pursue! : )

Would that bikes of ANY type sold better to 50-yr-olds.

That said, 'bents clearly offer the most diversity of design format/purpose than
any other kind of bike and so can appeal to widely ranging demographics.

Bents have a HUGE range of "looks." So which ones do you think look goofy?

Also: an XC skier worries about "goofy"? : ) Do you rollerski? Wear a bike
helmet? Lycra? A large blobular wrist HRM?

These folks offer some neat ones:

http://speedbikes.ch/

http://www.optima-cycles.nl/eng/2.htm

http://www.rowingbike.com

http://wisil.recumbents.com/wisil/whpsc2003/Varna.htm

And you wouldn't be allowed to set the world hour record on one. Against the
rules.

Which rules? Last I heard there are TWO hour record formats in the UCI (open and
traditional) and a bunch of them in the HPVA. How many riders care about records
or rules? Bents are allowed in more USCF events than ever: it's up to the
referee and several have stated they allow bents in TT's and certain crits.

Also: who cares about rules when your bike can do a 75mph kilo?

I did a 31 mile hour in my fully faired full-suspension HPV. That was fun! It
was on a great, hilly, twisty motor-racing course that the Cat 1-2's only ave.
24-25mph on.

I was also allowed to race in a USCF all-classes crit once and I lapped the
field with my unfaired lowracer. That was fun.

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publisher of outdoor/indoor do-it-yourself culture...
...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies...
...rare books on ski, bike, boat culture, plus a Gulf Coast thriller
about smalltown smuggling ... more radical novels coming up!
...original downloadable music ... and articles galore!
plus national "Off the Beaten Path" travel forums! HOLY SMOKES!