XC on TV---is good footage possible?

[THE THREAD ON THE NEW POPULARITY OF BIATHLON HAD A CRITICAL IDEA IN
IT THAT I'M USING TO START A NEW THREAD...]

On Mar 10, 11:49 am, wrote:
One thing I wish they had were cameras on more of the tougher parts of
the course, the places that make Holmenkollen so appreciated by
lesser skiers. Except for one short sharp downhill turn where many
snowplowed, especially in the women's race, cameras seem tied to
sections right before and after time markers. For me, that makes a
longer race like this a little less interesting on TV.

rm

Hear hear!

Are any TV shows smart enough to put cameras on the dramatic parts of
the courses?

Is TV camera technology these days conducive to this? Are the cameras
smaller, cheaper and lighter, etc.? I suppose the cost is in the crew
but if they put cameras out on the course in several amazing places
wouldn't that let them make good TV footage? Has a TV show ever put a
camera in a good place during a race? Did it make a difference?

Or, to put it in probably a more realistic way---has a course designer
ever positioned a great course feature right next to a parking lot so
that cameras could easily access the action?

On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 04:14:38 -0700 (PDT), "Jeff Potter (of
OutYourBackdoor.com)" wrote:

[THE THREAD ON THE NEW POPULARITY OF BIATHLON HAD A CRITICAL IDEA IN
IT THAT I'M USING TO START A NEW THREAD...]

On Mar 10, 11:49 am, wrote:
One thing I wish they had were cameras on more of the tougher parts of
the course, the places that make Holmenkollen so appreciated by
lesser skiers. Except for one short sharp downhill turn where many
snowplowed, especially in the women's race, cameras seem tied to
sections right before and after time markers. For me, that makes a
longer race like this a little less interesting on TV.

rm

Hear hear!

Are any TV shows smart enough to put cameras on the dramatic parts of
the courses?

Yes.

I saw some footage of the World Championships in Japan last year that
was awesome. A combination of fixed long-range cameras, cameras on
snowmobiles next to the racers, plus cameras on tracks along the
finishing stretch. Plus overhead cameras that were great at following
the lead pack of skiers into the stadium.

The footage of the pursuit races at the last Lahti World Championships
(especially the womens skate portion) was really good. Too bad about
the dopers...

Or, to put it in probably a more
realistic way---has a course designer
ever positioned a great course feature right next to a parking lot so
that cameras could easily access the action?

Not parking lots, but the course design that includes allowances for
a mobile camera on a snowmobile next to the skiers on some portion of
the course, plus track cameras.

JT

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 04:14:38 -0700 (PDT), "Jeff Potter (of
Or, to put it in probably a more
realistic way---has a course designer
ever positioned a great course feature right next to a parking lot so
that cameras could easily access the action?

Not parking lots, but the course design that includes allowances for
a mobile camera on a snowmobile next to the skiers on some portion of
the course, plus track cameras.

What about Vasaloppet, with absolutely continuous coverage from the
snowmobile that follows the leaders, plus overhead views from the
tracking helicopter, plus fixed cameras at all the official intermediate
stations about every 10 k or so?

That's pretty amazing to me.

Terje

--
-
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"

On Mar 11, 4:02 pm, Terje Mathisen
wrote:

What about Vasaloppet, with absolutely continuous coverage from the
snowmobile that follows the leaders, plus overhead views from the
tracking helicopter, plus fixed cameras at all the official intermediate
stations about every 10 k or so?

Vasaloppet is different thing. There you don't have any other chances,
so if you want live transmission, you pay for it. With Holmenkollen,
or any other races, you can get decent (enough) live transmission, and
decent track coverage, without (so) huge expenses. And less expenses,
means more profit for broadcaster
On the end, it's all about money. If we like it or not.

Take care,
Primoz
http://www.photo.si

Offhand, I would think that a snowmobile or track-cam might not work
for the most exciting parts of a course. I'm thinking that a steep,
twisting descent, with a pre-jump rise in the middle where skiers get
some air, could really wow viewers---but how to shoot it? Trackside
spectators probably like these sections, too. (Then they run over and
catch them going back up the lung-busters.)

OK, maybe they don't have courses like that. Did they ever? I recall
some of our US WC memoir writers saying that WC courses were so hard
as to boggle the mind. But I also recall folks like Koch saying that
courses don't have downhills that are as challenging anymore.

Anyway, it seems like the WC course with the wildest downhill could be
filmed for the best TV ratings.

It seems like "first base" for getting ratings would be to show parts
of the course where they're going 40mph+. I mean, alpine can't even
claim to show a dozen skiers together on a course, going, like,
50mph.

OK, there are a growing number of alpine derby events out there these
days, I think---designed around this kind of pack action---especially
for TV. I saw a YouTube of this "ski-cross" or whatever it's called.
The thing is that XC has offered group assaults on downhills for,
what, 50+ years. How often has TV bothered to catch it? And it's even
in the trees and there's no armor.

--JP

On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 17:29:21 -0700 (PDT), "Jeff Potter (of
OutYourBackdoor.com)" wrote:

Offhand, I would think that a snowmobile or track-cam might not work
for the most exciting parts of a course. I'm thinking that a steep,
twisting descent, with a pre-jump rise in the middle where skiers get
some air, could really wow viewers---but how to shoot it? Trackside
spectators probably like these sections, too. (Then they run over and
catch them going back up the lung-busters.)


Rather than speculate, see if you can find footage of some of the
events mentioned in this thread.

I'm looking at the women's pursuit from Sapporo right now, and see a
fixed camera high above a fast downhill corner - exciting sort of
looking over the racers shoulder as they go into it. No racers
getting air though.

Then a suspended camera over the racers as they come into the stadium
to change from classis to skating. Really cool watching the skiers
switch from classic to skating on their classic skis as they hit the
changeover zone.

Then there's a fixed camera shooting the racers from the front as they
hammer up the first hill out of the stadium. Oh, and there is a
snowmobile next to them too and we get a shot from the side as if we
are almost in the race on this hill. The pack is splitting under
pressure. Cool.

Now a series of fixed cameras swinging around as Kalla leads through
some downhill corners.

Very cool

Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com) wrote:
Offhand, I would think that a snowmobile or track-cam might not work
for the most exciting parts of a course. I'm thinking that a steep,
twisting descent, with a pre-jump rise in the middle where skiers get
some air, could really wow viewers---but how to shoot it? Trackside
spectators probably like these sections, too. (Then they run over and
catch them going back up the lung-busters.)

OK, maybe they don't have courses like that. Did they ever? I recall
some of our US WC memoir writers saying that WC courses were so hard
as to boggle the mind. But I also recall folks like Koch saying that
courses don't have downhills that are as challenging anymore.

Anyway, it seems like the WC course with the wildest downhill could be
filmed for the best TV ratings.

Did you see the biathlon from Korea last week?

There's a downhill getting into the stadium where lots of skiers fell,
Tora Berger damaged her rifle badly enough that she had to replace it,
and ended up almost dead last.

There were lots of bloody skiers at the finish area.

It seems like "first base" for getting ratings would be to show parts
of the course where they're going 40mph+. I mean, alpine can't even
claim to show a dozen skiers together on a course, going, like,
50mph.

They'll probably have to fix the Korean course before next year's world
champs.

Terje

--
-
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"

There was a downhill S curve on one of the pursuits that I watched via
WCSN and they had a camera right there. Since it was a mass start you
could see bunches of skiers taking those two corners very closely
spaced -- rather exciting stuff I thought.
-Jim

On Mar 11, 10:00 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote:
On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 17:29:21 -0700 (PDT), "Jeff Potter (of

OutYourBackdoor.com)" wrote:
Offhand, I would think that a snowmobile or track-cam might not work
for the most exciting parts of a course. I'm thinking that a steep,
twisting descent, with a pre-jump rise in the middle where skiers get
some air, could really wow viewers---but how to shoot it? Trackside
spectators probably like these sections, too. (Then they run over and
catch them going back up the lung-busters.)

Rather than speculate, see if you can find footage of some of the
events mentioned in this thread.

Do you have a link? I tried to find and the links from '07 don't work.

If this footage includes fast downhill handling, then I bet I'll say
"Yeah, do more of that if you want viewers!" It would also be cool if
they can get across a sense of steepness in terms of uphill as well---
but that seems perhaps hardest of all. Actually, the steepness of a
downhill isn't easy to catch either--it's hard to tell how steep a
slope is when watching most alpine footage. XC might be more conducive
to this as the spectators and trees are closer to the trail, to give
perspective, to show the angle of lean. An open alpine course can
easily have a "flat" look. But, man, if you ever visit them in person
it's hard to even stand on the slope!

I note that I'm discussing what would make good TV ski footage to
boost viewership---not so much looking for footage for myself. But I
like seeing some of the good stuff! I'd be happy to also call it out
as a good example and could put a link up to it from my OYB site to
show other viewers what XC is really like. (A dvd that I sell,
"Unlimited," has some good sections in it showing fast, rolling
downhills that go on and on.)

Did you see the biathlon from Korea last week?

No, but the biathlon coverage from Ostersund was great, although the
course lengths were shorter
they had excellent camera placements.
Even better was the TV cover from Nove Mesto.
I mailed the IBU to ask if there was a reason for that and await their
response.
I suspect the camera crews and direction were locals with local
knowledge, but I don't know how
Eurosport do their planning, do they keep a single crew travelling
from one location to the next?