Snow chain question

Ace wrote:

FWIW I've never needed chains[1] since I've had snow tyres fitted, so
my recomendation for anyone doing this on a regular basis would be to
get winter tyres. All else apart, they will work much better in cold
temperatures anyway, so I think I'd fit them now even if I lived in
the UK.


[1] Although there were some roads this morning which might have been
passable with chains (although they were actually closed). Black ice
city, it was, with a cm or so of snow almost, but not quite, melting
last night and freezing in places. Interesting journey in, it was.



The issue of winter tires for tourists is filled with false
premises.

There is no free lunch: Winter tires are less safe than 'summer
tires' on dry asphalt and slicks are more safe than summer tires.

(1) When tourists drive across Europe to the Alps, most of their
journey is on fast dry asphalt. There might be some 'winter'
conditions on the approach to the resort and their might even be
snow but the fact is they and other road users are best served by
'summer' tires since this give the most grip on dry asphalt.

(2) Both winter and summer tires will not grip on ice. You need
chains so that the weight of the car will press the chain into the
surface of the ice. You may well find tires which will grip better
when ascending/descending through snow but once you are on ice
there is nothing to hold you.

I have had off-road equipped 4x4 loose traction on an even layer
of fresh dry snow (not even ice) while descending slower than
walking pace. The tires did not respond to the brakes, and our
progress was the same speed with wheels locked or rolling.
Fortunatly there was nothing in the way of our descent and I could
just steer while allowing the wheels to rotate as slowly as I
could make them. Only chains would have given me control. If I had
had to stop I could not and the only thing I could have done was
steer one set of wheels up the snowbank. If it had been rock/Armco
either side then I could not even have done that.


So: Winter=chains in the Alps. This much we know.

But 'winter' tires are no use unless you live in a country called
winter. They will not provide as much grip as 'summer' tires at
high speeds on dry asphalt or even low speeds on dry asphalt for
that matter.

If you have driven across fast dry Europe and find that the
approach is covered in snow, stop and put the goddamned chains on.
Winter or any other tires will not save you if you round the
corner and find some snow compacted into ice or find a line of
stopped cars which have stopped on ice.

On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 18:22:13 +0000, "funkraum@hotmail.*com"
funkraum@hotmail.*com wrote:

The issue of winter tires for tourists is filled with false
premises.

There is no free lunch: Winter tires are less safe than 'summer
tires' on dry asphalt and slicks are more safe than summer tires.

Not so. In cold conditions winter tyres will give considerably more
grip than summer ones even on good dry surfaces. That's why they're
generally referred to as winter tyres, not simply snow tyres.

(2) Both winter and summer tires will not grip on ice. You need
chains so that the weight of the car will press the chain into the
surface of the ice. You may well find tires which will grip better
when ascending/descending through snow but once you are on ice
there is nothing to hold you.

Sure, but it's really very unusual to encounter these conditions. But
yes, I always make sure I have my chains in the car.

So: Winter=chains in the Alps. This much we know.

But 'winter' tires are no use unless you live in a country called
winter.

Well yeah, but anywhere that's consistently cold over the winter
period will benefit, not just those places that get a lot of snow.

They will not provide as much grip as 'summer' tires at
high speeds on dry asphalt or even low speeds on dry asphalt for
that matter.

As I've said, that is simply not correct.

--
Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
Ski Club of Great Britain - http://www.skiclub.co.uk
All opinions expressed are personal and in no way represent those of the Ski Club.

In message
"funkraum@hotmail.*com" funkraum@hotmail.*com wrote:

Ace wrote:

FWIW I've never needed chains[1] since I've had snow tyres fitted, so
my recomendation for anyone doing this on a regular basis would be to
get winter tyres. All else apart, they will work much better in cold
temperatures anyway, so I think I'd fit them now even if I lived in
the UK.


[1] Although there were some roads this morning which might have been
passable with chains (although they were actually closed). Black ice
city, it was, with a cm or so of snow almost, but not quite, melting
last night and freezing in places. Interesting journey in, it was.



The issue of winter tires for tourists is filled with false
premises.

There is no free lunch: Winter tires are less safe than 'summer
tires' on dry asphalt and slicks are more safe than summer tires.

(1) When tourists drive across Europe to the Alps, most of their
journey is on fast dry asphalt. There might be some 'winter'
conditions on the approach to the resort and their might even be
snow but the fact is they and other road users are best served by
'summer' tires since this give the most grip on dry asphalt.

(2) Both winter and summer tires will not grip on ice. You need
chains so that the weight of the car will press the chain into the
surface of the ice. You may well find tires which will grip better
when ascending/descending through snow but once you are on ice
there is nothing to hold you.

I have had off-road equipped 4x4 loose traction on an even layer
of fresh dry snow (not even ice) while descending slower than
walking pace. The tires did not respond to the brakes, and our
progress was the same speed with wheels locked or rolling.
Fortunatly there was nothing in the way of our descent and I could
just steer while allowing the wheels to rotate as slowly as I
could make them. Only chains would have given me control. If I had
had to stop I could not and the only thing I could have done was
steer one set of wheels up the snowbank. If it had been rock/Armco
either side then I could not even have done that.


So: Winter=chains in the Alps. This much we know.

But 'winter' tires are no use unless you live in a country called
winter. They will not provide as much grip as 'summer' tires at
high speeds on dry asphalt or even low speeds on dry asphalt for
that matter.

If you have driven across fast dry Europe and find that the
approach is covered in snow, stop and put the goddamned chains on.
Winter or any other tires will not save you if you round the
corner and find some snow compacted into ice or find a line of
stopped cars which have stopped on ice.



A quick search on Google with the keywords of winter tyres and sites
from the UK quickly throws up several official tyre manufacturers and
distributors that have technical documents showing why winter tyres are
also good for the winter conditions found in the UK and ireland.

Modern winter tyres use compounds and treads that are designed for cold
weather, cold wet weather, as well as snow and icy conditions. Where
they don't perform well is in hot dry conditions.

see for example

http://www.etyres.co.uk/bad-weather-tyres

http://www.michelin.co.uk/uk/auto/au...qr_pne_hvr.jsp

http://www.tyres-online.co.uk/techinfo/winter.asp

as just three of the links thrown up.



Mike
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
" || _`\,_ |__\ \ | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

Mike Clark wrote:
In message
"funkraum@hotmail. com" funkraum@hotmail. com wrote:


Ace wrote:

FWIW I've never needed chains[1] since I've had snow tyres fitted, so
my recomendation for anyone doing this on a regular basis would be to
get winter tyres. All else apart, they will work much better in cold
temperatures anyway, so I think I'd fit them now even if I lived in
the UK.

I can concur. Just got a set of Nokian WR SUV tyres for my VW Caravelle.
Did a fantastic job in 20 cm of fresh at 6 am new years day !
They also make a huge difference back home in the UK
Most Summer tyres dont grip well below 6C and most winter tyres do.
I guess we shouldnt confuse winter tyres with real hard core snow tyres

E.g.
http://www.nokiantyres.com/suv_produ...=NOKIAN+WR+SUV
Fantasic winter tyre even H rated so you can blast all day on the autoroute.

http://www.nokiantyres.com/suv_produ...PEL IITTA+SUV

Serious snow/ice tyre with studs.

But yes you will need chains too.

On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 18:22:13 +0000, "funkraum@hotmail.*com"
funkraum@hotmail.*com wrote:

But 'winter' tires are no use unless you live in a country called
winter. They will not provide as much grip as 'summer' tires at
high speeds on dry asphalt or even low speeds on dry asphalt for
that matter.

Everything you know is wrong.
--
Champ

Serious snow/ice tyre with studs.

Studs are not allowed in several countries, e.g. Germany.

But yes you will need chains too.

Take my advice, you very well might need chains in the Alps. Perhaps not on
a motorway, but on the last kilometers to your skiing resort.

The alternative might be an accident!

Turan

my advice: do not even think to go into the alps without the chains...
some regions can easily get three feet of snow in like a day... you do
the math...

esp


======================
Get a desert job w/out a gun:
http://www.dubai-ski.com/jobs.html
======================

funkraum@hotmail. com wrote in message
...
snip

So: Winter=chains in the Alps. This much we know.

I've seen road-signs which I take to mean that carrying snow chains is
compulsory in some areas in winter.

Can you recommend a brand that's (relatively) easy to fit, and not too
expensive, since they'd only be for occasional / emergency use? Where's a
good place to buy them (I'm in the UK, but driving to La Clusaz / Grand
Bornand area in March)?

TIA,
Steve P

Felly sgrifennodd Steve Pardoe :
Can you recommend a brand that's (relatively) easy to fit, and not too
expensive, since they'd only be for occasional / emergency use? Where's a
good place to buy them (I'm in the UK, but driving to La Clusaz / Grand
Bornand area in March)?

I got mine online. They're Rudd, the cheapest model at around GBP50 (I
forget exactly). They're the easiest to fit that I've used; with practice,
1 minute (each) on, and half a minute off - in ideal conditions of course.

The side of a freezing road in the Alps with air temperatures well below
obviously does not give ideal conditions... if you want chains that are
easier still to fit, you have to pay more.

Just do a web search, you'll find them.

Adrian
--
Adrian Shaw ais@
Adran Cyfrifiadureg, Prifysgol Cymru, aber.
Aberystwyth, Ceredigion, Cymru ac.
http://users.aber.ac.uk/ais uk

"Adrian D. Shaw" wrote in message
...
I got mine online. They're Rudd, the cheapest model at around GBP50 (I
forget exactly). They're the easiest to fit that I've used; with practice,
1 minute (each) on, and half a minute off - in ideal conditions of course.

That seems pretty impressive!

The side of a freezing road in the Alps with air temperatures well below
obviously does not give ideal conditions...

I can imagine. Some climbing friends of mine found that they really, really
needed to fit their chains inside one of the tunnels leading up to La
Berarde, with oncoming traffic. Then found that the car rental company had
lied about the chains being supplied.

if you want chains that are
easier still to fit, you have to pay more.

Just do a web search, you'll find them.

Thanks, I'll do just that.
Steve P

PS Sorry I don't know how to say thanks in Welsh ;-)