Cool off road skates

www.terrablades.com 8 wheel skates, that clip on ski boots, 4 v-brakes
on middle wheels.
tell me what you think we are nearing production that have been allot
of fun for us, looking forward to sharing this sport with others.

R

As they currently are, totally useless for simulating real (i.e.
nordic) skiing.

Looks very cool for Alpine type stuff. I'm not convinced yet for general XC
training over typical "clean" forrest roads as also used in winter time.
I wish I could find a builder for "my" design, so we could battle it out.
Terrablades would win on scary descends for sure though.
I hope my idea of paired wheels on rockers (I stole that, really) will allow
for really simple and light brakes, while optimizing natural roll over the
continious bumps in forrest road.

Are you configuring the monowheel also such that it works much like poles
would, used for human propulsion when such desired? It would be cool if the
"poles" would be telescopic, and compression would slightly speed up the
monowheel, or it would at least resist to be pushed back even before it
comes to a halt. I can imagine at higher speed, it would be fine if
relatively slow poling would still allow for acceleration. No idea whether
this is even possible, but it seems cool.
Props for that monowheel idea, opens up lots o options I'm sure. But please
keep it clean and silent. No more power than it absolutely necessary for
enjoyment. Looks like it could make for some nasty accidents...

"terrablader" schreef in bericht
oups.com...
www.terrablades.com 8 wheel skates, that clip on ski boots, 4 v-brakes
on middle wheels.
tell me what you think we are nearing production that have been allot
of fun for us, looking forward to sharing this sport with others.

R

can you post a sketch of what you are thinking of? would love to see
it!

these skates are for alpine i posted here just to add to Jan Gerrit's
post. Since its been a long time to hear someone admit 2 wheels are
not as good as 4 for turning. Jan can you keep in touch on my site or
by email. wwww.terrablades.com

take care!


Jan Gerrit Klok wrote:
Looks very cool for Alpine type stuff. I'm not convinced yet for general XC
training over typical "clean" forrest roads as also used in winter time.
I wish I could find a builder for "my" design, so we could battle it out.
Terrablades would win on scary descends for sure though.
I hope my idea of paired wheels on rockers (I stole that, really) will allow
for really simple and light brakes, while optimizing natural roll over the
continious bumps in forrest road.

Are you configuring the monowheel also such that it works much like poles
would, used for human propulsion when such desired? It would be cool if the
"poles" would be telescopic, and compression would slightly speed up the
monowheel, or it would at least resist to be pushed back even before it
comes to a halt. I can imagine at higher speed, it would be fine if
relatively slow poling would still allow for acceleration. No idea whether
this is even possible, but it seems cool.
Props for that monowheel idea, opens up lots o options I'm sure. But please
keep it clean and silent. No more power than it absolutely necessary for
enjoyment. Looks like it could make for some nasty accidents...

"terrablader" schreef in bericht
oups.com...
www.terrablades.com 8 wheel skates, that clip on ski boots, 4 v-brakes
on middle wheels.
tell me what you think we are nearing production that have been allot
of fun for us, looking forward to sharing this sport with others.

R

"terrablader" schreef in bericht
ps.com...
can you post a sketch of what you are thinking of? would love to see
it!

Just for you : (you did say SKETCH, I'm sorry, I'm all idea, and zero
graphic talent. A MS Paint is my tool...
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-...lipboard01.jpg

A top view of the 2x2 rocker setup here. Load is spread over more wheels,
and each keeps contact with the surface.
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-...drolskijpg.jpg

Here a little idea for a speedreducer built in the rocker, it might double
as a true brake, a roller wedged in between 2 wheels should offer quite a
bit of drag.
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-...edReducer-Brak
e.jpg

This will help the weight balance of the ski, adding a 3rd wheel up front.
All 3 are individually suspended (you need to look well, I didn't draw it
very cleverly). A rocker on a rocker. Each wheel only has 1/3 of the front
end's load, and a 1" branch on the trail wll lift the front end main pivot
by only 1/3" and ~1/5 of the weight load of the complete ski. Should roll
over obstacles like a snake does, smooth and effortlessly. Keep in mind that
with the rocker system is pretty much impossible to come up with a trail
surface that will get even a single wheel to not make contact.
It's also possble to make it shorter, with 2 wheels left, 1 right for
instance.
2 of the 3 wheels would have a preferable travel path (up and back)
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-...heelrocker.jpg

And this was an attempt to find a way to have similar rocker "suspension"
with wheels that are side-by-side. Should allow the ski to be laid over
while skating. Might have to be spring loaded. May not ski at all, too
instable?
Anyway, one might keep overall length in check with 2 larger rear wheels.
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-...sidebyside.jpg

The rear pair of the 2x2 might have the most rearward wheel on the outside,
the other on the inside, to improve clearance between the rear wheels of
both skates. Might especially be nice with climbing?

If you use any of this as an inspiration, you owe me a working pair of
prototypes.

Terrablader, have you ever experimented of how much influence wheel
placement is offroad, inline vs side by side? I imagine that rolling over
soft forrest soil, the inline setup will be much faster, as the first wheel
"paves" the way, more or less. Brakes twigs, pushes marbles out of the way,
etc. If the inline effect is significant on rolling resistance, my
side-by-side ideas become useless.
Also, I wonder how much effect doubling the wheels has on rolling resistance
over typical offroad skating surface. Have you ever done a 4 vs 2 wheel
rolling test with your skates?

A http://www.hydroskate.nl/ setup with 150mm wheels would be nice too. All
wheels would have the preferable travel path. The larger wheels and rougher
surface may work better with the hydroskate design also. It sure it a witty
design.

For my first prototype I'll be happy with the currently well available 6
1/4" air wheels (150mm). For production, I'd want a more high-end version of
those, like really tiny mountainbike tires. A bit wider too, for lower
off-road rolling resistance. If it proves doable, a bit larger in hub
diameter too. Current wheels are of course designed for 2-wheel setup,
4-wheelers would only have to endure have the abuse, at lower air pressures.

I can see myself skating the 2x2 setup gracefully over fire roads, at
similar speeds to which I would reach with the same fitness and technique
level, on snow.
I envision summer biathlon to be held at the same venues as in the winter.
No need to race rollerski's just on perfect pavement.

Please give me all the feedback that comes to you.

Thanks,

J

Jan, sorry for the critique, but you've got to build some feel for
rollerskiing first. You've got to experience different pavement
types/rocks/railroad tracks/people/etc, it really helps.

no matter how the wheels are suspended/rock, the ground clearance
problem is still there. Not much different from standard rollerskis. I
can negotiate any rough trail on my Aeros as long as there is enough
clearance, and I don't have any problem with not enough wheel
suspension. Catching a rock with the frame is what stops me from going
off road. The noise is annoiyng, too. Nothing compared to quiet gliding
on snow (which, I hope, it what it's all about).

The terraskates (and all rollerblades) solve the clearance problem by
putting a continous array of wheels below the frame. But the monstrous
design of the terrskates suggests a huge weight, rendering them useless
for nordic skiing. Even if the weight was OK, the shaking and the noise
would make a workout not enjoyable. Again, nothing compared to quiet
gliding on snow.

Putting a break on a rollerski part is not a problem, the problem is
accessing that break from the height of the skier. This is where
complicated ugly cables come from. If you could deisgn a reilable and
light servo-activated break, the idea'd be golden.

for rellerskiing, nothing beats a smooth country road with no cars.
Peaceful, quiet, the pole tips hitting the ground is the only sound
(which is not very noticeable if done right).

Good critique, thanks.

Also good to hear the Aero's are so capable for you, as I'm about to take
delivery of those.
However I've already found that my body style doesn't like a short 2-wheel
setup. Even with 10x2" wheels I can't roll over off-roads with stumbled
every stroke. Even the smoothest grass lawn can't be rolled over faster than
walking pace, at maximum effort.

Impressive that you actually fine the ground limits of your aero's. The type
of forrest trails I have in mind wouldn't make that much of an issue.
The noise I never thought about. My own poles cannot be heard even on
pavement, although my current strength calls for more than these rubber pole
tips.
With a 4-wheels setup, each wheel will bear only have the weight and can be
run at lower pressure. The rockers should reduce peak loads on the wheel by
much more than factor 2. they give way now, in stead of slamming into trail
objects. Only practice will say how much noise will remain. Of course, noise
comes from resistance. It's a bad sign, and thus an aweful sound. If the
4-wheeler works a bit, it should be more silent. Especially when higher-end
tires hit the scene. In mountainbikes on pavement I can hear obvious
difference between indentical treads with different compounds and casing
construction. More compliant should equal more silent.

Could the beams of the Aero's act as noise amplifiers? I wonder what a
little bit of foam or cork in both ends would do for your noise
experience... Every toy store has these lightweight foam balls, I may get a
couple to squeeze into mine, see (listen) what happens.

I wholeheartedly agree about brakes. Cables do complicate things. For a good
long workout in beautiful forrest I might not mind about that too much
though.
Servo's are what I want for ease of use, but those increase weight and
complexity.
While skill may take away some of the need for brakes in rollerskiing, I'm
pretty sure that the lack of practical and effective brakes is keeping the
sport smaller than it might, indirectly affecting snow skiing too.
With off-road ski's, I'm convinced that technology will offer the solutions
to any issues, if you let it. If one would get a $1.000.000 R&D budget to
get a proper set up figured out, the result would surprise everyone. It's
said before, current rollerski's have less complexity in their construction
than a $20 skateboard. The skateboard however had a much greater R&D budget.
Some smart thinking/designing, craftsmanship and openmindedness should
deliver something close to that unrealistic budget though.
- Lightweight low-resistance tires
- Lightweight noise-dampening wheel cores
- Carbon molded frames with optimum rock clearance and disposal, light
weight, noise reduction, pleasant power transfer.
- Speed reducer and brake in one, servo-controlled.
- What else we need?
Rollerski's will never cost as much as a good racing bike, regardless of the
technology put into them. Expecting to pay the same as for a good skateboard
is perhaps limiting our options. World cups being won on $400 ski's and $300
rollerski's, hmmm...


schreef in bericht
ps.com...
Jan, sorry for the critique, but you've got to build some feel for
rollerskiing first. You've got to experience different pavement
types/rocks/railroad tracks/people/etc, it really helps.

no matter how the wheels are suspended/rock, the ground clearance
problem is still there. Not much different from standard rollerskis. I
can negotiate any rough trail on my Aeros as long as there is enough
clearance, and I don't have any problem with not enough wheel
suspension. Catching a rock with the frame is what stops me from going
off road. The noise is annoiyng, too. Nothing compared to quiet gliding
on snow (which, I hope, it what it's all about).

The terraskates (and all rollerblades) solve the clearance problem by
putting a continous array of wheels below the frame. But the monstrous
design of the terrskates suggests a huge weight, rendering them useless
for nordic skiing. Even if the weight was OK, the shaking and the noise
would make a workout not enjoyable. Again, nothing compared to quiet
gliding on snow.

Putting a break on a rollerski part is not a problem, the problem is
accessing that break from the height of the skier. This is where
complicated ugly cables come from. If you could deisgn a reilable and
light servo-activated break, the idea'd be golden.

for rellerskiing, nothing beats a smooth country road with no cars.
Peaceful, quiet, the pole tips hitting the ground is the only sound
(which is not very noticeable if done right).

The noise I hear from my Aeros mostly comes from the speed reducers
vibrating. So, if the N of moving parts is reduced to the minimum, the
noise should not be a problem.

- Lightweight low-resistance tires

Agreed. Inflatable or microcell tires would help, too. I was thinking
about tubeless glue-on tires

- Lightweight noise-dampening wheel cores

most wheel hubs are made of plastic anyway. I don't know how much
lighter they can get.

- Carbon molded frames with optimum rock clearance and disposal, light
weight, noise reduction, pleasant power transfer.

The aluminum frames of my aeros are remarkably light (200 grams ea? I
have to disassemble them). I believe it's the wheels that add on most
of the weight. Each Aero ski is 2 kilos, and that's max I would agree
to have on my feet (raciing snow skis are ~1 kilo each, for reference)

- Speed reducer and brake in one, servo-controlled.

OK.

Note again, that it's just us urban crazies discussing this. When I
lived in the country and had more time on my hands, I never thought (or
did not think as much) about breaks etc. A shaft with two polyurethane
wheels is all you need for a great workout. Look up some idyllistic
pictures on rollerskiing in Utah on fasterskier.com. People who get
paid for rollerskiing/skiing don't live in urban areas, and they won't
buy your super rollerski

If a decent idea comes up, I don't need 1 mil for R&D. I could do it as
a weekend project at a machine shop.

As for rolling over obstacles, I still vote for an array of wheels
under the frame. Have you noticed how suprisingly easy it is to roll
over thins with regular rollerblades? Actually, you are right, it could
be just the pressure distribution, which should not matter if there is
a large gap between wheels. So, your idea is viable, unless you go
off-road where clearance is important.

I'd also try to look for inspiratoin in other fields. Look at anything
that rolls and see if you can learn from there.

schreef in bericht
ups.com...
I'd also try to look for inspiratoin in other fields. Look at anything
that rolls and see if you can learn from there.
Many ideas I come up with are acutally a form of suspension. Making for
indirect contact between feet and soil.

It might be interesting to take like TEN 100mm wheels, and place them all
inline. Just the most front ones on rockers or suspension, so the boots
would just be 105mm above the ground, like with 100mm rollerblades. At times
only as few as 2 wheels would be in contact with the ground. Making the
rollerskis flexible similar to a snow ski might add another interesting
dimension.
Ten or even eight 100mm wheels are heavy too though.
I wonder what rolls better over soft soil, 8x100mm or 4x150mm.
On the road, it doesn't take much imagination how 10 PU wheels inline would
roll. On the other hand, that's 20 bearings turning at cruising speed...
Where would that break even?

I like your idea of glue-on tires. Those might be relatively easy to
manufacture, but a real pain for mounting and repairs. Especially with 8 or
10 of them in total... They would be ultra light though. For instance, a
700mm diameter 35mm wide tubular cyclo-cross tire can be in the range of
320-450g. For 160mm or so that would be 80-100g. The same goes for tires
though, but those do require a 42g tube.

The noise I hear from my Aeros mostly comes from the speed reducers
vibrating.
In the forrest, you won't need speed reducers unless in a serious descend
the good side of higher resistance over the off-roads.

Perhaps I'm a louzy athlete. I can't bear to ride a road bike over empty
country roads. My forest rides are longer and more fun. It's like a holiday
when I manage to get to nature and feel in touch with it on the
mountainbike. The offroad add a dimension. Potholes to time your strokes
around, wider and narrower "safe" trails, changing conditions.
On PU wheels on pavement, there's just good and bad, it seems to me.

I just got a call from my friend, my Aero SC's with brake are in, I'm
stoked! I'll be trying 3 kinds of wheels : Stock Aero 150mm, Micro 150mm
slicks, and 143mm 87A Micro PU wheels. The latter are the heaviest, but I
have hopes they'll be fast enough to turn me into a rollerski commuter. It
will be good to train with heavy gear this way.
Who know, I may be able to challenge my rollerblading friend now with those
wheels. My average on Crosskates over 1km with some corners is now 24kph,
his 30kph.