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#21
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"LeeD" wrote If you have NO overhang whatsoever, unless you ride super stiff boots, you cannot edge with power and speed, as your edging points on your feet are your heels and balls of your feet, which are not at the ends of your feet! Can you stand on the balls of your feet? Some people have pretty strong ankles you know, like from other sports - kiteboarding for example. I don't see any problem holding my weight even in a very hard carve on the toe side, and the binding highback takes care of that on the heel side. Stiff boots help too. Sure you can edge once a day, or several times, but you get tired quickly and end up sliding around. If anything, the big prime movers (thighs mostly) get tired from hard carving first, esp. if you're not into doing stuff like olympic squats with some impressive weights regularly. Look at the width of Pro rider's boards..... All the Pipe guys ride narrow for their feet size, like Powers and Terjes 246 sizing, for size 9 boots. They have overhang, so they can edge harder. Also, narrower board edge QUICKER, something you need for riding steeps. Are you real? I have no opinion about pipe boards, but steeps usually are ungroomed and have either powder or packed-out bumps. In either case you want a wide board, and quick edging on steeps is achieved by moving your CG even further forward and kicking the back of the board around while airborne between your shortened half-carves. But sure, if you prefer riding wide boards and no overhang, more power to you! You can slipslide around everywhere, never catch an edge, and have the best times in powder. Burton Fish is not wide at the bindings. It's the best powder board. For powder, it's the shovel width that counts, not the waist width. You don't need a wide board for powder, although it surely works better than narrow regular board. |
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#22
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"LeeD" wrote My two freestyle boards, both 27 and minus 3....that's my all around stance, at 22" wide. Size 11 boots, maybe 44/45, L bindings, 25.7 or 25.3 wide boards. Overhang about 1" toe, maybe 3/4 rear binding loop. That's about 60 degree toe, closer to 75 degree heel binding strap, so it never drags noticeably. I would love to see how you'd get from lift 1 to the Pan Face at Baker with a setup like this. It's a roller-coaster long fast traverse, part of it along about 35% grade, heel-side if you're regular. Or, for that matter, how you'd do on the Pan Face itself when the powder has been packed and bumped out a bit (2-3 days after). Seriously, I haven't seen a single snowboarder (soft or hard boots) who didn't totally f-ing sideslipped there all the way down, taking all the pow with them. Of course lots of skiers do that too, but at least there are some who're good. Not like that with boarders. And Baker is supposed to be the place to see some really good riding. Off the soapbox, need to go sacrifice some beer and make a prayer for either snow or good wind for the long weekend. |
#23
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Never rode Baker, or Bachelor....
But ScottsChute or Father's at Alpine no problem, if the snow has some softness to it...not ice, I can't handle blue ice. Chute75 or Wesfface Squaw many times. RockGarden or Waterfall at Sierra, both basically OOB's unless the snow is really high. The 60' rockface drop off Chair1 at DonnerskiRanch, done over 10 times, but last was when I was younger, like in '96. I'm 56 now, no more steeps. What I cannot handle is being outside guy at the chair at Mammoth that drops you off in a barn, you drop another 120' or so, then make a 90 degree right or smack the plexiwindow. Since all the boarders to the right of you don't have their bindings strapped, and neither do you, it's mass hysteria and confusion. Or g/f that's dysleksic getting off lifts, grabbing me when I least expect it, for no reason, then falling HARD onto my board. Brain fade..... That, I cannot handle.... Oh, slow strappers thats gotta sit down, brush snow off bindings, look around, talk a bit, then bend over to consider strapping bindings in. I usually beat the Flow users, about 50/50 with the Clickers, and I never sit down to strap my bindings. Lucky for me, the Flow and Clicker riders can't strap/click where I like to hike to..... |
#24
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"LeeD" wrote Never rode Baker, or Bachelor.... But ScottsChute or Father's at Alpine no problem, if the snow has some softness to it...not ice, I can't handle blue ice. Ahh, sweet memories.. Ride Scotts until you drop, then in for some hot wine in the hut with the ladies, then ride some more.. It's actually pretty similar to Pan Face except for the rocks (and it's about 2x longer), but chair 1 at Baker serves plenty of that stuff just a bit to the right. I was there once when it was icy, AFAIR it was when I just got my board stolen, so a rental Burton Custom was my ride. Doable but some heel drag from their Mission bindings and of course that's not the board to have for ice - not enough edge hold. What I cannot handle is being outside guy at the chair at Mammoth that drops you off in a barn, you drop another 120' or so, then make a 90 degree right or smack the plexiwindow. Since all the boarders to the right of you don't have their bindings strapped, and neither do you, it's mass hysteria and confusion. AFAIR that chair is high-speed and it slows down quite a bit before you get off. So what you do is hold on to it a lot longer than you normally do, wait until the rest of the people get off and start falling over each other, then take off and maneuver between them. You'd be surprised how much of a gap in time you can make if you don't get off the chair till the very last possible moment, and then hold on to it a bit more with your hands while sliding down the slope very slowly. Your initial speed will be lower too. Oh, slow strappers thats gotta sit down, brush snow off bindings, look around, talk a bit, then bend over to consider strapping bindings in. Yeah, that's just not right. They've been sitting on a lift for some time just before getting off. I usually have a plan by then and anxious to go try to ride it.. Lucky for me, the Flow and Clicker riders can't strap/click where I like to hike to..... My strapping in is a blessing for my skier friends. I'm the last to drop in, so I get to collect their yard sales when they screw up their landings. |
#25
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Why would you want overhang….
Well, I am no pro, so besides listening to the guys who I respect allot giving me advice on such matters, I will venture some good guesses. In reality you do not want any overhang, that would be your foot overhanging the board OR your board overhanging your foot. It’s all a matter of leverage and how the rider will be transferring work to the edge of the board. Too wide of a board would be mechanical advantage against the rider. So after considering it for awhile, I figure the optimum board width would seem to be the following: The amount of width required accommodating your bare foot in your riding stance. Because I like to occasionally ride park and ride out switch, I find angles +15 front –5 rear comfortable. On my Palmer Crown and Zuma Surf H.C. Carbon, my rear bare foot has little or no overhang. Now with boots on (Salomon Malamutes), I now have overhang, but I can efficiently transfer loads to the board edges. The overhang is not (in my opinion) excessive, and due to the bindings, up and out of the way. Anyhow, that’s my technical stab at the problem. Out here, East of the Mississippi, I ride mostly groomed hardpack. I will occasionally follow my son into the trees. On the rare occasion I find myself in deep powder (10” or more), I ride a 167 Rossignol Nomad Wide to float me to the top. Regards, Chris Neil Gendzwill wrote: Christopher Cox wrote: I am curious, what is your setup and in what conditions do you ride? I have two, a 21.5 cm Coiler AM that I ride at 45/40 and a 24.5 cm waisted Rad-Air Tanker at 35/30, hard boots. No overhang. Did I offended you in someway? Uhm, no, what in my post caused you to think that? I'm just giving my opinion. In particular, when I said "I don't understand why anyone would want any overhang", I'm genuinely curious why. Because my impression is that overhang is what happens when people buy a standard-waisted board, stand on it with standard freestyle angles in whatever size boots they happen to have, and live with it. If there's a solid technical reason to live with toe or heel drag other than tha's the way it worked out given the equipment you have and the stance you want, I'm curious to hear it. Neil |
#26
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LeeD wrote:
When I talk carving, I mean with my RaichleHardBoots and Hot Spot or Logical, full on slalom and GS raceboards with plate bindings. Whoah, that's some old stuff. I used to lust after a Logical about 10 years ago. Nobody races on asymmetrics anymore. You ought to check into some of the modern carving gear from Donek, Prior, Coiler, F2 or Volkl. Neil |
#27
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LeeD wrote:
You talk too much theory, don't look around at people snowboarding! That's my problem, I do look around at them and most of them can't turn. The various pros you mention, I'd have to look at their actual setup. But I'd be surprised if they have much overhang - boot-out can't be much fun if it takes you off your line in an icy pipe. You can carve a couple nice turns with any width board, but if you need holding power all day, go as narrow as your feetsize and stance will allow. Absolutely, we're just disagreeing on what stance will allow. There was an interesting discussion on the AASI forum the other day where some instructors said that people often use more inclination than required. If they correctly pressured the edge, they should be able to get by with less inclination. But I still think if you're getting foot contact at 45 degrees, you're going to boot out when carving hard and you'll definitely get some drag in soft conditions. Neil |
#28
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Problem at Mammoth is I'm goof, and I do frontside getoffs a lot
better, but usually not when 3 people yard sale in front of me.... Neil, I don't race, so don't need the latest gear. Sure, my Hot's don't carve as quickly or at as much speed as FactPrimes, but they're paid for, will last forever, and float in pow if needed, as well as being wide enough for me to stand up even when I'm not moving. Raceboard usually looking for groomies first thing in the morning, so if corduroy isn't happening, I can jump into the trees still. I had trouble riding trees with my old 164 FPrime. I actually started snowboarding with a Plus, so assym and pow doesn't bother me. |
#29
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LeeD wrote:
Neil, I don't race, so don't need the latest gear. Sure, my Hot's don't carve as quickly or at as much speed as FactPrimes, but they're paid for, will last forever, and float in pow if needed, as well as being wide enough for me to stand up even when I'm not moving. Burton doesn't market alpine anymore. The last alpine boards Burton made were called R17 Addicted and available only in Japan, before that they were Speeds, it's been 6 years since they were called FP I think. But I don't think there was a ton of development going on, mostly top sheet changes. You might find this interesting reading: http://www.bomberonline.com//articles/asymetric.cfm I don't understand the comment about them being wide enough to stand up when you're not moving? Anyways, if you want an alpine board with a wider waist, there's lots of choice. Outfits like Prior, Donek and Coiler have stock shapes in waists up to 23 cm, lots of room for that (relatively) shallow stance. I ride a 21.5 waist with around 45 degree angles, which were common with the asyms. I think your old Hots are narrower than that. I don't have any problem with pow float, my board is designed as an all-rounder - I take it everywhere, bumps, trees, pow, you name it. There's a few Euros still riding Asyms these days, definitely in the minority. Neil |
#30
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Me, old fart, now 56. Ten years ago, riding mostly raceboards,
stopping to rest means sitting down tweaking my back knee. Freestyle stance is much friendlier, and my knees don't hurt sitting, and at 4cm wider widths, I can stay standing even in softer snow. I last worked at a Burton shop in 99, so that was my last FPrime. Laurent would comp me a board every year, just 'cause I personally sold over 170 new model Burton boards a year from '95 thru '99, and I only worked about 20 hours a week. The outfit I worked for, 3 shops in 3 different cities, only ordered a total of 500 Burton boards a year. Spot 22, Logical 21, Plus 23.5. My current AvalancheIceRocket164 at 24. |
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