another way to train for skating on a bicycle?

Why not just ride the bike, enjoy it and become more fit and strong
because of it? I have a feeling that the amount of "gain" one might
realize by tweaking pedaling is terribly minor, dare I say extremely
insignificant compared to the overall fitness benefit of riding.
Myself? I both ski and ride for personal fitness goals and have no
concern whatsoever if I could theoretically train for skiing by riding
or vice versa. Both are terrific for keeping fit for the other but
that's irrelevant. Why not just do whatever fitness sport you have at
your disposal in any particular season and just enjoy it for that - not
what it might do for another fitness sport.

Zeke wrote:
Why not just ride the bike, enjoy it and become more fit and strong
because of it? I have a feeling that the amount of "gain" one might
realize by tweaking pedaling is terribly minor, dare I say extremely
insignificant compared to the overall fitness benefit of riding.
Myself? I both ski and ride for personal fitness goals and have no
concern whatsoever if I could theoretically train for skiing by riding
or vice versa. Both are terrific for keeping fit for the other but
that's irrelevant. Why not just do whatever fitness sport you have at
your disposal in any particular season and just enjoy it for that - not
what it might do for another fitness sport.

I presume Ken's interest is similar to mine. That is that our ultimate
performance is of no significance as we are hobbyists, and the
physiological development side of things and various mental exercises
concerning said development is just another facet of these hobbies.

In other words nobody is worried about these things, but thinking about
them and trying them adds to our overall enjoyment of the sports.

Joseph

Jan Gerrit Klok wrote:
Ken,

My English doesn't make it easy for me to immediately understand the below
fully, but I may have something to add.

Some years ago on a bike exhibition I came across a maker of 3D pedals. The
pedal platform or retention system sat in a curved sleeve in the splindle,


Do you think that those 3D pedals still exist ?

They could be usefull to recumbent bike Front wheel Drive, where the
pedals must turn with the wheel. To get the idea, see :
http://www.sunnykeach.com/hpv/frontdrive.html

Do you think that those 3D pedals still exist ?

They could be usefull to recumbent bike Front wheel Drive, where the
pedals must turn with the wheel. To get the idea, see :
http://www.sunnykeach.com/hpv/frontdrive.html

(Jan Gerrit Klok attempting post from Google Groups)

I bet they don't exist anymore and not for years, otherwise Googling
them would have been much easier.
Would those few cms of clearance at the bottom of the stroke help so
much for turning clearance, you think? Where interference occurs, the
movement would be reduced to half of less I'd say.

I was enthousiastic about the pedals back in the day until I heard the
price, but am warming up to the idea all over again. My cycling could
be more aimed at my ski skating, and I could take advantage from my
skiing in my cycling. If indeed it works as advertised in the long run.

I'll try to dig up the patent application, which has got to exist.
Might tell us more about who to contact also.

Zeke wrote
Why not just do whatever fitness sport you have at your
disposal in any particular season and just enjoy it for that
- not what it might do for another fitness sport.

Because if switching to a new kind of pedal could increase my Power output
by 10% more Watts average most of the time while I'm on my bicycle, that's
something I want.

When I started using my hip-abduction muscles to help climb on my bicycle,
it felt dramatically faster -- I would have guessed 20% -- perhaps because
my hip abduction muscles are well-trained from skating (unlike most
bicyclists). The big quick side-to-side movement that goes with it felt a
bit exciting (out of control?) compared with my usual "quiet upper body"
pedaling.

But without special pedals, I can only get those extra Watts from my skating
muscles while I'm standing. While I do lots of intense standing pedaling in
my training workouts, I find I don't like standing much while I'm out riding
on a tour.

Sharon and I like doing long single-day bicycling loop tours. Adding 10%
more Watts average for the day changes what tours we can do. In the last
couple of years we've been applying to our bicycling some of the training
ideas I got from r.s.n. and cross-country skiing, and it's been working for
us. So we've been able to take on longer hillier loops that we could never
do before, and we're liking the new experiences, like last September:
http://roberts-1.com/t/b05/it/k/a

If using more skating muscles in our bicycling leads to more tours like
that, instead of "whatever" at my "disposal", then I'm interested to explore
it.

Ken

On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 11:42:44 GMT, "Ken Roberts"
wrote:

Because if switching to a new kind of pedal could increase my Power output
by 10% more Watts average most of the time while I'm on my bicycle, that's
something I want.

Insofar as this relates to training for skiing, it seems appropriate
to discuss here. Otherwise, it's off-topic and better for
rec.bicycles.tech or rec.bicycles.misc or maybe the Topica group on
wattage training (I'm not sure about the latter).

JFT

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Joseph wrote
I more or less just noticed that I developed bulging hip
muscles after one season of hard skiing (50/50 skate/classic)
that were not present earlier despite lots of cycling.

Sounds like your body made a dramatic training response -- just from skiing?
no high-resistance strength training with weights or machines?

Is that a result you wanted?
For myself I like having some visible muscles. Even if the leaner skiers are
still going to beat me in hilly races, I don't care.

I've long felt that my upper leg muscles are kinda "wide", though I've only
emphasized pushing out to the side in recent years. I suspect it's because I
started doing steep-ish backcountry downhill skiing about the same time I
started bicycling, and control on steep downhills sometimes requires high
side-forces for edging the ski into firm snow (especially with the no-buckle
leather boots I used for so many years) -- so it stimulated muscles on
outside of my leg for reasons other than propulsion.

I've seen reports in the last couple of years that different people have
very different responses to similar training stimulus: some people develop
big muscles which are not very strong, other people develop stronger muscles
which are not bigger (and other possible combinations).

Ken

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote
Insofar as this relates to training for skiing, it seems
appropriate to discuss here. Otherwise, it's off-topic
and better for rec.bicycles.tech or rec.bicycles.misc
or maybe the Topica group on wattage training (I'm not sure about the
latter).

Good point -- I'll try some of those bicycling groups.

"Ken Roberts" schreef in bericht
...

I've seen reports in the last couple of years that different people have
very different responses to similar training stimulus: some people develop
big muscles which are not very strong, other people develop stronger
muscles
which are not bigger (and other possible combinations).
Not ski-specific, but when I hit the gym in my late teens/early 20's, I
ended up pushing huge weights, even with my still extremely girlish arms. 3x
the weights I started out with, with just a 1kg overall weight gain in
muscle. My legs hardly made any progress, being a cyclist back then already.
After a few months of skating I cannot find any new ski-muscles yet (maybe
my shoulders and six pack), but do notice I stand much stronger and
balanced, and when I attempt to address a particular muscle (cluster), I
have strength on tap.

From what I've read the composure of your muscles is what decides how easily
you gain muscle weight. As a rule of thumb, those that build big muscles
easily, tend to be more like sprinters, the skinny people are natural
endurance talents. Sprinters also seem to put on beer bellies much easier. I
wish I had a bit more explosive power, but it's fun that I cans tay lean if
I don't live too lazily.

Ken Roberts wrote:
Joseph wrote
I more or less just noticed that I developed bulging hip
muscles after one season of hard skiing (50/50 skate/classic)
that were not present earlier despite lots of cycling.

Sounds like your body made a dramatic training response -- just from skiing?
no high-resistance strength training with weights or machines?

Nothing but skiing and sitting in front of a computer. 10kg weight gain
from 8-10 hours per week (of skiing, sadly many more than that in front
of the computer).

Is that a result you wanted?
For myself I like having some visible muscles. Even if the leaner skiers are
still going to beat me in hilly races, I don't care.

It wasn't a planned result, but I actually am quite pleased with the
results. I too don't care about getting dropped on hills (whether on
skis or a bike) because really what's the difference between 40 minutes
or 30 minutes back? I'd rather be 230lbs of muscle than 200lbs of
muscle and 15lbs of fat. I have settled into my eating pattern to such
a degree tha the last 15lbs of fat wasn't going anywhere. Better to
swap it out with calorie-burning muscle and not have to change my diet.
Unplanned, but a happy result.

I've long felt that my upper leg muscles are kinda "wide", though I've only
emphasized pushing out to the side in recent years. I suspect it's because I
started doing steep-ish backcountry downhill skiing about the same time I
started bicycling, and control on steep downhills sometimes requires high
side-forces for edging the ski into firm snow (especially with the no-buckle
leather boots I used for so many years) -- so it stimulated muscles on
outside of my leg for reasons other than propulsion.

I've read that this sort of isometric resistance can lead to
significant development. Particualry if the muscles involved are
otherwise seldom used (and thus underdeveloped).


I've seen reports in the last couple of years that different people have
very different responses to similar training stimulus: some people develop
big muscles which are not very strong, other people develop stronger muscles
which are not bigger (and other possible combinations).

Indeed it is strange. One of my riding buddies from last year and I are
perfect examples. He is slim and lean. We rode together quite a bit.
Very similar cadences, same rides, etc. My forearms are bigger than his
calves. My calves are bigger than his thighs, and my thighs are almost
as big as his waist! He is a much stronger cyclist than me, but
amazingly he is almost as strong as me otherwise (carrying sofas, etc).

Joseph