click your heels in V2 skate

I just figured out another reactive-force move in skating -- but then I
looked at my videos and saw that (as usual) the elite racers had already
been doing it.

This little extra move is in the "recovery" of the leg and ski inward, to
get them into position to start the next skate-push.

The obvious and quick leg-recovery move is to just bring the lower leg and
ski inward thru the air, stop them at the correct location, then land the
ski straight down into the snow and start pushing the lower leg and ski out
to the side (and partly backward) in the direct skate-push into the snow.

The extra move needed to get reactive-force benefit is this: Bring the lower
leg and ski inward _further_ -- past the location where you intend to land
the ski -- further to almost touch the other leg (almost like "click your
heels" together). Then start the lower leg and ski moving outward while
still in the air, and land the ski at its intended spot with the lower leg
already in motion outward, then continue that outward (and partly backward)
motion as an active push against the snow.

The reactive-force benefit from this extra move is that by starting to move
the mass of the lower leg and ski outward while the _other_ ski is still
edged and actively pushing, the opposite reactive force is transmitted
positively to the other ski which is aimed the opposite way. (But if the
start of the outward move of the lower leg is done in the obvious quick way,
than the reactive force from accelerating the mass of the lower leg and ski
is transmitted _negatively_ thru the edge of the same ski aimed the same
way.)

Videos: Of the Technic videos on JanneG's website, here is Per Elofsson
skating V2 ("1-skate", "double-dance") with the extra inward leg-recovery
move:
http://avari181.mt.luth.se/Technic/Perelof10.mpg (5.1 Megabytes)
The tricky part with video is being able to see clearly where the ski is
landed. Otherwise its tempting to think that the ski was _landed_ further
inward on its outside edge (usually not a good idea for getting speed when
skating on _skis_). I find it easier to see clearly the delay of the moment
of landing in a rollerski video, and for that I like this one of Chad Giese
demonstrating V2 skate, linked from
http://skinnyski.com/training/articl...rskiing-2.html

"Click your heels together" -- good or bad?
Now I'm thinking that the amazing complexity of Skating has triumphed again,
and the answer is,
"It depends".

more below.

Ken
_________________________________________________
Exercises for the skier/physicist:

(1) How come the elite racers usually do this extra "almost click your
heels" move in V2 ("1-skate"), but usually _not_ in V1 ("offset",
"paddle-dance")?

(2) Which of these variations on the leg-recovery move increases the net
overall positive forward-propulsive work from _reactive_ force to the total
stroke-cycle: (a) starting the inward move thru the air more _quickly_; or
(b) stopping the inward move thru the air more _sharply_; or (c) starting
the outward "extra" move thru the air more _quickly_, then "banging" the ski
into the snow to start the direct skate-push.

(3) Suppose the mass of the skier's lower leg and ski is 15 kg, and the
skier recovers the ski inward thru the air _past_ the next
snow-landing-position, further inward an extra 15 cm, then moves it outward
that same distance with constant acceleration in 0.05 seconds. (a) What is
the amount of additional reactive-force work (in Dynes)? (b) If the skier's
turnover frequency is 45 complete two-leg-push stroke-cycles per minute and
this extra reactive-force work is converted into forward-propulsive work
with 50% efficiency, then what is the additional forward-propulsive Power
(in Watts)?
_________________________________________________

Of course you know this is sacrilege to New Skate. : )

The John Ahlberg vid on NSR.com show s him definitely putting his new
glide foot straight down under his shoulder. It comes back, doesn't go
far under body, sets down when it gets under shoulder.

I reported on my own V2 developments this summer here already.

I found that unless I finished my kick before setting down on my glide
ski that I went out of balance to the outside. When I totally finished
my kick I found that I was setting down on the glide ski when the leg
was under the shoulder area. I was NOT doing heel-click and it seemed
to work better without the heel-click. I was having trouble with
falling off my power side and getting onto glide side too soon---and
losing balance to the outside.

I'm not sure that one can be finishing a kick and have the new glide
leg near the kicking foot.

I realize that you're saying to set the ski down under the shoulder
but to start it swinging from near the powerside then set it down---to
get reaction from a left leg, say, into a rightside push. I'm not sure
what my foot does before it sets down. I was just impressed that for
me getting stable meant kicking all the way thru before getting onto
the new ski and that that entailed setting the new ski down further
away from the other ski than I had been doing.

--JP

So you're saying I should look at that video instead of Per Elofsson?

Jeff Potter wrote
The John Ahlberg vid on NSR.com

I'd like to see that video, but I can't find anything like it on that web
domain. Where should I look? Is this Ahlberg guy a New Skate leader? or is
he that guy who beat Elofsson at Falun three years ago?

I found that unless I finished my kick before
setting down on my glide ski that I went out of balance to the outside.

Well count me as voting in favor of not setting down the next ski until
after finishing pushing on the current one (when skating, especially when
skating V2). Maybe with V1 (offset up) a real steep hill, some elite racers
come pretty close to _almost_ pushing on both skis at once, they're working
so much on continuity of push.

I'm not sure that one can be finishing a kick
and have the new glide leg near the kicking foot.

Me neither. I didn't think I was talking about that.

Why don't you look at that video I mentioned of Chad Giese doing V2 skate on
rollerskis on www.skinnyski.com

Ken

I'm not sure that one can be finishing a kick and have the new glide
leg near the kicking foot.


Wouldn't it be "double push" ?

How much reward to the first person achieving it with skis ? ;-)

"Ken Roberts" wrote in message ...

So you're saying I should look at that video instead of Per Elofsson?

It takes all kinds. The vid I mention shows what the New Skate folks
have been saying, is all.

Jeff Potter wrote
The John Ahlberg vid on NSR.com

I'd like to see that video, but I can't find anything like it on that web
domain. Where should I look?

http://nordicskiracer.com/Training/2...2rollerski.mpg

Is this Ahlberg guy a New Skate leader?

It's Aalberg actually and he was the best US skier at SLC if I recall.

[ ]
I found that unless I finished my kick before
setting down on my glide ski that I went out of balance to the outside.

Well count me as voting in favor of not setting down the next ski until
after finishing pushing on the current one (when skating, especially when
skating V2).

I think it's a common fault to set down too early and to fall off of
the push side and thus end up with an unstable glide side.

I'm not sure what all I do with the passive leg before set down.

In the Aalberg vid it looks like he's just gently bringing the passive
leg back under the body then setting it down. Minimal action for him
with that leg. I recall seeing this kind of leg action in the
Unlimited DVD when Lise' Meloche was doing V2.

Maybe with V1 (offset up) a real steep hill, some elite racers
come pretty close to _almost_ pushing on both skis at once, they're working
so much on continuity of push.

I'm not sure that one can be finishing a kick
and have the new glide leg near the kicking foot.

Me neither. I didn't think I was talking about that.

OK, I guess it looks like the passive leg swing happens in the early
part of the push. Then what I learned was that you don't set it down
til the push is over.

Why don't you look at that video I mentioned of Chad Giese doing V2 skate on
rollerskis on www.skinnyski.com

I looked at some of that. He seems more dynamic than JA with his
swinging offside leg before setting down.

--JP

The John Ahlberg vid on NSR.com show s him definitely putting his new
glide foot straight down under his shoulder. It comes back, doesn't go
far under body, sets down when it gets under shoulder.

I was at the same clinic with Jeff and John. John took one look at my
V2 and said, "You're an inline skater, aren't you?" I was bringing my
skiing directly underneath me - basically doing a heal click or close
to it. My ski, because it was so far underneath was really on it's
outside edge.

His comments:
1. You never want the ski on the outside edge. Landing on an outside
edge requires you to wait until your ski glides from outside edge, to
flat, to inside edge before you can begin your push. And a gliding ski
is a slowing ski.
2. On flats, landing on a flat ski is OK. But see above.
3. On uphills, you want to land on an inside edge so you can
immediately push off again.

Mike

(Jeff Potter) wrote in message . com...
"Ken Roberts" wrote in message ...

Is this Ahlberg guy a New Skate leader?

It's Aalberg actually and he was the best US skier at SLC if I recall.



No, Aalberg was one of the officials at SLC. He was one of the best
(which wasn't saying much back then) U.S. skiers in 1994 along with
Ben Husaby. Their results pale in comparison to John Bauer and Pat
Weaver at Salt Lake City. Better drug testing in SLC might have helped
Bauer and Weaver...

Jay Tegeder
"Keep training, lycra never lies!" JT

(Jeff Potter) wrote in message . com...


http://nordicskiracer.com/Training/2...2rollerski.mpg

Is this Ahlberg guy a New Skate leader?

It's Aalberg actually and he was the best US skier at SLC if I recall.


you mean the 2002 olympics? hmm. most recently, john aalberg was the
director of soldier hollow for the 2002 games and played a large part
in designing the trails. he raced plenty in the 80's and early 90's
and i remember him leading off in the relay at the '92 alberville
olympics and doing respectably, but nowhere near as well as our skiers
did in 2002.

note: US men 5th in the relay with bauer and freeman in the hunt for
medals the first two legs. john bauer 12th, pat weaver 16th in the
15km, andrew johnson 21st in the 30km, kris freeman 15th, carl swenson
19th? in the pursuit. and that's to say nothing of the much better
results they've had since then.

it just frustrates me when it seems like US skiers aren't even known
by rabid RSN'ers. how could they possibly get recognition from the
general public?

get to know the team! http://www.teamtoday.org/news.php
they've never been more accessible. and lucky us spectators, they've
never been better.

-phil

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 12:26:50 GMT, "Ken Roberts"
wrote:

The extra move needed to get reactive-force benefit is this: Bring the lower
leg and ski inward _further_ -- past the location where you intend to land
the ski -- further to almost touch the other leg (almost like "click your
heels" together). Then start the lower leg and ski moving outward while
still in the air, and land the ski at its intended spot with the lower leg
already in motion outward, then continue that outward (and partly backward)
motion as an active push against the snow.

Ken, I've recently started doing exactly what you describe with V2 on
roller skis because of watching Perelof10 over and over. That outward
move just prior to set down was very different from anything I was
doing and when I tried it I felt a very DEFINITE increase in power.
The technique experts and elite skiers haven't chimed in on this yet,
but all I can say is it seems like a good thing to do for me.

Jim

(Mike) wrote in message . com...
[ ] My ski, because it was so far underneath was really on it's
outside edge.

I think Ken's idea is not to land the ski close to the other foot but
to bring it in, then swing it out, creating a reactive force, then
land it farther out where it's proper and nice. He's saying a swing
out of the glide leg increases the push of the pushing leg. I think.

But Aalberg's vid shows no such swing.

However, other vids do show this swing.

Maybe in high speed situations---such as the vid of Per on the flats,
one does more of a swinging waltz type of V2. But when V2ing up hills
maybe one might be smart to not swing or move the recovery leg any
more than one has to.

--JP