A Snow and ski forum. SkiBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » SkiBanter forum » Skiing Newsgroups » Nordic Skiing
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

LT Training for Lance, Why Not Nordic Skiers?



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old August 15th 03, 12:20 AM
Ken Roberts
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default LT Training for Lance, Why Not Nordic Skiers?

It's not clear that this is a "bike versus ski" thing. It's easy to find
bicycle training books that say "no more than two hard workout days per
week" to train for endurance-distance racing.

Aren't Lance Armstrong's goals rather different even from most other elite
_bicycle_ racers, namely: "win the Tour de France". Does that mean that he
doesn't have to worry much about winning any _sprints_?

Seems to me that winning the whole TdF is completely different from winning
a World Cup ski race: different course design, different team strategy,
different single-day distances, etc. (Could anything like a TdF mountain
stage be _legal_ under World Cup or Olympic ski rules?)

I seem to remember someone claiming that modern World Cup courses (e.g.
Soldier Hollow) with lots of hill climbs which are steep but not long
(compared to TdF) tend to reward anaerobic "tolerance": Go hard climbing
up, accept the lactic build-up, then recover on the downhill. Seems like
this anaerobic "tolerance" capability would be even more important for a
_mass_start_ elite ski race on a modern World Cup course. (then throw in
the new world Cup race formats: sprints, 2-person relays . . . )

Seems to me there's reasons enough for some training in high-intensity,
anaerobic zones : _above_ LT. Sounds like that would require lots more
recovery time between workouts, even for an elite athlete -- so not 3 or 4
times a week.

How that all translates down for us citizen skiers with non-elite bodies on
non-World-Cup courses, who can say? Wasn't there some guy who wrote for
citizen racers, and advocated as optimal training something like 3 near-LT
workouts a week?

Ken



Ads
  #2  
Old August 15th 03, 03:10 AM
Gene Goldenfeld
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default LT Training for Lance, Why Not Nordic Skiers?

Douglas Diehl wrote:

Last fall many R.S.N. readers discussed LT training, but many issues seem
unanswered. From reading training records for Lance Armstrong, it is
apparent LT training (training slightly below or at the Anaerobic Threshold)
is the core of his fitness program. Several workouts per week are designed
to influence his LT. Apparently this from of training is very successful for
him. However, elite Nordic ski racers concentrate more on long aerobic
workouts with high end level 4 intervals in late summer and fall. Why is it
these Scandinavian athletes are avoiding several LT workouts per week and
are so successful. Of course the obvious is they have extremely high V02's,
but they still look for the best training methods. Any insight from you
sport physiology people would be appreciated.



Doug, on the face of it you seem to be treating two different concepts as
one here; i.e., "influencing one's LT," which can be done in any number of
ways, including running just under one's lactate balance point -- usually
20-30 beats below LT -- for a couple of hours, with doing a number of "high
end Level 4" workouts a week, which would presumably be quite taxing. How
it works exactly with cycling training I don't know, but presumably Lance
and others are doing a lot of long distance, getting volume, as well as
intensity sessions. In any event, I've dropped in here a NY Times article
from July 2002 about Lance's training.

Gene
-----------------------
Unyielding Training Gives Armstrong His Edge

By SAMUEL ABT

EVRY, France, July 28 Lance Armstrong has a favorite comeback to
people who wonder how he can climb the Alps and the Pyrenees so
rapidly in the Tour de France without looking strained. "You should
see my face in January or February," he said. "It's not a pretty
face."

At that time, Armstrong, the Tour champion, is training, not
racing. At most times, in fact, he is training, not racing
Armstrong is one of the rare riders who prefers to go out on his
bicycle day in, day out rather than upgrade his form in races.

"I train every day," he said in an interview as he sat in his
United States Postal Service team bus before a daily stage this
week and discussed his year-round preparation for the race he calls
his major objective.

"I never miss a day of training. Never," he said with emphasis.

The primary purpose, he continued, is to raise his aerobic
threshold, the point where he begins building up the weary lactic
acid in his muscles. Reluctant to go into the details of his
training regimen and hesitant about giving away trade secrets, both
Armstrong and his coach, Chris Carmichael, said that aerobic
training was what set Armstrong apart from the other riders.
Armstrong remained comfortably ahead today after finishing 29th in
the stage from Orleans to Evry, leading Jan Ullrich, a German with
Telekom, by 6 minutes 44 seconds and Joseba Beloki, a Spaniard with
ONCE, by 9:05.

Armstrong said he trains predominantly uphill, near Nice, where he
has a home. "It's a way to escape the traffic," Armstrong said. "I
do a lot of specific work, no really intense work. It's all
subthreshold.

"If this is your threshold," he continued, moving an envelope on
the table toward him, "the purpose is to push your threshold up and
I believe the only way to push it up is to train below it. If you
train above it, ultimately you're going to push the threshold
down," he said, moving the envelope toward him.

He said that his training lasted "anywhere from two to eight hours
daily" and was a mixture of work on the road and in the gym, the
latter occurring mainly during the winter at home in Austin, Tex.
Armstrong spends an hour a day, three times a week, in the gym, he
explained.

"I do a little bit of gym work, no upper body work, but lower body
work, abdominal stuff, lower back stuff.

"No swimming," he added, even though he was a crack swimmer as a
youth and a triathlete afterward. "I'd like to swim but if I did I
would immediately bulk up. I have that reaction to exercise like
that."

Joking with teammates in the bus and gazing out its one-way-vision
windows to watch the passing crowd, Armstrong summed up his
climbing skills: "You have to have a basic gift and then it's how
you work with that gift, how you shape it, the work that you do,
the intensity you do it in and then the motivation for the race.
I'm very motivated for this race. It's everything."

Carmichael, Armstrong's coach for a decade, filled in some blanks
later.

"We have five training components that are manipulated on a daily
basis," said Carmichael, who directs Carmichael Training Systems
for amateur and professional riders in the United States. "They are
the train he's riding on," said Carmichael, referring to the gears
used, "the intensity as measured by heart rate, pedal cadence,
frequencies how many intervals he does and volume as measured
in hours."

Carmichael said the intervals can be "four 20-minute blocks at a
182 to 184 heart rate. In between the intervals, it's easy
pedaling."

He echoed Armstrong's reliance on aerobic threshold training.

"That's when you produce energy in the presence of oxygen and
you're burning two primary fuels, fat and carbohydrates,"
Carmichael explained. He added that during anaerobic training,
activity done without supplying oxygen to the muscles, the fuel
burned is glycogen, a carbohydrate the body stores.

"You only have a certain amount of that in you," he said. "And the
negative byproduct of anaerobically produced work is lactic acid,
which slows you down and creates the burn. Work that's produced
aerobically, there's no negative byproduct.

"When you see Lance on the climbs in the Tour, it doesn't seem
he's hurting. You know what? He really isn't. Lance is almost
entirely aerobic. When he attacks, then he goes anaerobic and
everybody else has already been there."

So he speeds away, as he did daily in the mountains, leaving his
tired rivals behind.
  #3  
Old August 15th 03, 09:17 PM
Edward Dike, III
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default LT Training for Lance, Why Not Nordic Skiers?


"chris esposito" wrote in message
...
| Gene Goldenfeld wrote:
|
|
| Unyielding Training Gives Armstrong His Edge
|
| By SAMUEL ABT
|
|
| Carmichael said the intervals can be "four 20-minute blocks at a
| 182 to 184 heart rate. In between the intervals, it's easy
| pedaling."
|
| He echoed Armstrong's reliance on aerobic threshold training.
|
| 20 minute long intervals at a HR of 184? Ouch...
| Anybody know what Armstrong's max HR or AT HR are?
|
| Chris
|

From: http://www.lancearmstrong.com/lance/...2.nsf/html/FAQ

Be like Lance - you wish:
Ever wondered what kind of numbers the boy can generate? Lance's coach,
Chris Carmichael sent us these key stats for LA:

Resting heart rate: 32-34
VO2ml/kg: 83.8
Max power at VO2: 600 watts
Max heart rate: 201
Lactate Threshold HR: 178
Time Trial HR: 188-192
Pedal rpm's during TT: 95-100
Climbing rpm's: 80-85, sometimes faster when attacking
Average HR during endurance rides (4-6 hrs): 124-128
Average watts during endurance rides: 245-280 watts
Training miles/hours, endurance rides: 5- 6 hrs / 100-130miles


I guess it's not (about) the bike.

ED3


  #4  
Old August 16th 03, 10:16 AM
Douglas Diehl
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default LT Training for Lance, Why Not Nordic Skiers?

Actually I'm not talking about two different things. I'm referring to
optimal methods for endurance training. As you mentioned cyclists do time
trails very similar to Nordic skiing. Moreover, triathletes and mountain
bike racers aren't coasting or drafting, but rather pushing their limits
above the LT threshold. Perhaps I should have used Bill Koch's name as a
reference for LT training rather than Lance's to avoid any cycling
comparison. As many readers know Lee Borowski uses Koch as an example. Which
brings me back to my question about the value of LT training. Bjorn Daehlie
describes his interval sessions as roller skiis or runs up very steep
mountains with his coach waiting to give him a ride back down. At the end of
each interval he was completely maxed out. Clearly not LT training. For
years many coaches mantras was not to train at a moderate paces or you would
end up racing at a moderate pace. So LT workouts seem contradictory to
racing faster
"Janne G" wrote in message
...
Douglas Diehl wrote:

Last fall many R.S.N. readers discussed LT training, but many issues

seem
unanswered. From reading training records for Lance Armstrong, it is
apparent LT training (training slightly below or at the Anaerobic

Threshold)
is the core of his fitness program. Several workouts per week are

designed
to influence his LT. Apparently this from of training is very successful

for
him. However, elite Nordic ski racers concentrate more on long aerobic
workouts with high end level 4 intervals in late summer and fall. Why is

it
these Scandinavian athletes are avoiding several LT workouts per week

and
are so successful. Of course the obvious is they have extremely high

V02's,
but they still look for the best training methods. Any insight from you
sport physiology people would be appreciated.


You are talking about two diffrent things here. If you have done any bike
racing you know that there are moments of drafting in low energy mode an
there are fast hurting pace burst when trying to break loose or cath a
break. In XC-skiing there are more a steady high pace hovering around LT
all the time and trying to not use upp the glycogen storages before
the finnish line. The only dicipline in cycling that is alike XC-skiing
is when doing timetrial (TT), here it's you against the clock and your

LT;-).

The other thing that differ largly is the race time, the longest XC race

would
be Vasaloppet which is around 4hours, this only touches the shortest

bikeraces
in time. The longest (normal) XC-race is the 50k and it is completed

around 2:10
and is just done one in say 4-5 weeks, Tour the France is 19 races done in

21 days
with a duration about 4-6 hours each.

It's diffrent.

--

Forward in all directions

Janne G



  #5  
Old August 18th 03, 04:41 PM
Douglas Diehl
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default LT Training for Lance, Why Not Nordic Skiers?

Thanks Gene!
"Gene Goldenfeld" wrote in message
...
Doug's a top-level master skier in his 40s and I think he's trying to
figure out what to do with his training to get better results this year.
Last year he decided to try something different and followed Lee

Borowski's
plan. However, from what he recounts he must have done so too literally,
without adjusting it enough to his situation, and got burned.

In a discussion with Kevin Brochman recently, he said that a basic

training
schedule should be two hard and one easy workouts a week (that's what I've
been trying to do minimum this spring/summer, but without forcing it). He
didn't specify, but from reading elsewhere I would take one hard to be
level 3 and one level 4 until the fall, when the intensity can start to
rise. Intervals should be part of that. He also talked about how he
coached the Lindsays last summer -- that is, Weir and Williams, both just
graduated from high school. The program was four hard weeksdays a week
with a day off in the middle. If he saw they were flat or tired, he'd

tell
them to go home and take a day or two off. Then they'd come back rested
and do PRs. Among the workouts were 1-mile running intervals between hill
tops, 80-stair climb repeats, and rollerskiing the infamous Coulee. Of
course, Weir made the Olympic team and Williams was not far behind. Also,
of course, they were both about 18 years old, had the time and

conditioning
to put in 15-20 hours/week, and an excellent technique coach. Those of us
40-60+ should adjust accordiningly.

Gene

tanford.edu wrote:

[2] - P.S. if you think multi-millionaires are going to publish
their trade secrets in a $4 magazine where all their competitors
can read it, I have some very fine bridges and swamp land that
you might be interested in.



 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Nordic Skiing Automobile GR Nordic Skiing 35 August 17th 03 01:57 AM


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:25 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2018 SkiBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.